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07-31-2014, 05:51 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by OregonJim Quote
It doesn't. I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out that the OP may have been referencing something other than 'reach'. But, since we're here, that 400mm lens doesn't give you the same depth compression that a true 600mm lens would, so it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
It has never been established that depth compression achieved at one sensor size is "true" or that depth compression is a necessary function of a good picture, it has to be applied selectively, and you don't have selection with any prime lens. You get what you get. Since I've shot side by side with FF shooters and have images practically identical to theirs, I'm going to toss this in the hopper where it belongs. Lets confine the conversation to things that make better images in the real world.

Some differences (between formats) can sometimes make a specific picture better. Some differences are better ignored. They are are undetectable in normal viewing and are as likely to make a more pleasing picture as they are to produce a less pleasing picture if the difference is detectable.


Last edited by normhead; 07-31-2014 at 06:02 AM.
07-31-2014, 08:14 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by OregonJim Quote
It doesn't. I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out that the OP may have been referencing something other than 'reach'. But, since we're here, that 400mm lens doesn't give you the same depth compression that a true 600mm lens would, so it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
The compression is an effect of perspective (distance), not FL directly, so if you took the same shot from the same position with the 400mm and cropped it to 600mm FOV, it would have the exact same 'compression' effect (just with less MP in the frame.)

Long telephotos give you more 'compression' because they're usually being shot from farther away, and their FOV frames the area of the scene where the effect is greatest. ( I love well-done 'compression' shots.)
07-31-2014, 11:11 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It has never been established that depth compression achieved at one sensor size is "true"
That's not what I said or was even implying. I was talking strictly of focal length - two pictures taken from the same location with different focal lengths (regardless of sensor size).
08-01-2014, 02:59 PM   #34
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I just hope the pentax ff doesn't turn out to be the Duke nukem of cameras

Coming to think of it. That also had aliens involved

08-01-2014, 03:03 PM   #35
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Wasn't the first Pentax FF around in 2004 or so? It's already Duke Nukem.
08-01-2014, 03:31 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Wasn't the first Pentax FF around in 2004 or so? It's already Duke Nukem.
Yep, 2000 Pentax MZ-D prototype worlds first digital full frame but it got cancelled after Contax huge flop with a similar camera. They probably avoided doom and gloom by not providing what the world and tech wasn't ready for.
08-01-2014, 05:06 PM   #37
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After seeing the 645Z review videos I want a FF even more.

<sarc>

Because they will undoubtedly f'up the video on the FF, so at least I won't be dropping $9k on a camera that doesn't do good video.

</sarc>
08-01-2014, 05:27 PM   #38
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There's a whole thread on "why I won't buy a K-3", one of the most popular threads ever. I think we should go for "why I won't buy a Pentax FF." Of course, just like the K-3 thread, most would end up with one anyway, but it's still great to bitch about why you wouldn't again. I'm definitely not buy two Pentax FFs, write it in stone.

08-02-2014, 08:48 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm with Adam on this one. With the Nikon and Sony both releasing.. 24MP entry cameras, 12 and 16 Mp high Sensitivity cameras, and 36 Mp High Res cameras... what? Now Pentax is going to release one FF? They'll still be two offerings short in the FF market.

I honestly don't understand why they haven't released a relatively barebones utilitarian K-3 guts with an FF sensor, just so folks can make use of the expensive FF glass Pentax still sells.

It would be unique...
K-mount
Selectable AA filter
Built in SR

The only thing I can think is their market share has gotten so small, and the competition offers so much more, their marketing department doesn't believe they can sell enough to recoup production costs.

The other possibility is, like myself, they just don't believe there is enough difference between APS-c and FF to justify the expense. The 645D and z have sensors double the physical size of the APS-c Pentax offerings, and in photographic terms, doubling the sensor size makes much more sense than a 1.5 increase. I know, with all the clamour, it's pretty far fetched, that they could actually think that way... but, a couple years ago, my question to a Pentax rep about an FF ended with a 645D being pushed into my hands. If that's their logic, you have to admire (or despise) the way they've stuck to their plan. By that logic, their next release should be 66x44, not 36x24. They could call it a 67z or something like that.
Norm, the FF sensor is 2.25 the size of asp-c. The 1.5 is just the focal length multiplier, not the sensor size difference, so the FF more then meets your requirements for Pentax to act.
08-02-2014, 09:04 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Big Dave Quote
Norm, the FF sensor is 2.25 the size of asp-c. The 1.5 is just the focal length multiplier, not the sensor size difference, so the FF more then meets your requirements for Pentax to act.
Well actually no, 2.25 is a little over 1 stop, as I said. Everytime you go up a stop, things double. 3-4 stops is worth changing formats for. The sensor would have to be have to be 8 times bigger, (although I'd settle for 4 , as in the case with a 645D) or in the case of the A7s a 3 stop better ISO performance based on better technology.

I'd say, if you can't fudge one stop, go back to school.
08-02-2014, 09:24 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'd say, if you can't fudge one stop, go back to school.
Wow, never thought norm would argue against the 645D/645Z in favor of FF (only 0.68 stop difference).
08-02-2014, 09:58 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Well actually no, 2.25 is a little over 1 stop, as I said. Everytime you go up a stop, things double. 3-4 stops is worth changing formats for. The sensor would have to be have to be 8 times bigger, (although I'd settle for 4 , as in the case with a 645D) or in the case of the A7s a 3 stop better ISO performance based on better technology.

I'd say, if you can't fudge one stop, go back to school.
You must be using new math or something. Are you talking about sensor size or light transmission?
08-02-2014, 10:05 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by VisualDarkness Quote
Yep, 2000 Pentax MZ-D prototype worlds first digital full frame but it got cancelled after Contax huge flop with a similar camera. They probably avoided doom and gloom by not providing what the world and tech wasn't ready for.

Irony... worlds first digital full frame camera prototype... and last with an actual release of one... if they ever release one.

---------- Post added 08-02-14 at 12:08 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
it's OK.

FUJI is spending money hiring Pros to tell consumer that they "Don't need FF".
Ricoh is smart.

Ricoh FF GR is more realistic than Pentax FF DSLR.

That isn't logical either.. Ricoh marketing a FF, fixed lens, pocket camera but not having any FF sensored DSLR bodies? If anything, Ricoh is sharing technology amongst it's product lineup.. so we'd likely see a FF dSLR AND a GR.
08-02-2014, 10:08 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Big Dave Quote
You must be using new math or something. Are you talking about sensor size or light transmission?
He's right about sensor size doubling being equivalent to one stop improvement.

Of course he's being silly about needing 3-4 stops better to be 'worth it'. Heck, with available lenses, the 645Z has the same light gathering as just-about-any APS-C camera, and plenty of people find the 645D/Z to be 'worth it'.
08-02-2014, 10:55 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by p38arover Quote
Revealed today on New Camera News, it looks like there will be a significant delay to the introduction of a Pentax FF camera:

SHOCKER! Aliens Eat Pentax Full Frame Cameras! | New Camera News

I didn't believe this until I seen the movie. Now I'm a believer.
LOL
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