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08-29-2014, 12:15 PM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
That's why I said 'big'. As in sheet film
Yuppers. More than 10x crop factor from aps-c to 8x10.

08-29-2014, 12:28 PM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
If you think you need 85mm on APSC for the compressed rendering it provide, you'd need 127mm to get the same compressed rendering on FF. The 85mm shoot on FF would look like the 55mm shoot in term of perspectives. This mean that it would not change your problem a little bit.

I agree that you might have better in focus - out of focus transitions, more shaprness down to fine details and less deph of field, but none of theses is what you ask for.
The rending won't change between formats for a given lens... but I may be misunderstanding what you meant.

I'm ok with the current working distance of 50mm on APS-C, but not the distortion. Going up to 85mm on APS-C (to control distortion) I'd have to be further away from the subject to get similar framing, but that won't work as I'd have to move diagonally up and away from the subjects, and I'm already standing, in that specific case.

If I were shooting FF @ 85mm, I'd have a bunch of extra room around the subject (the bit chopped off due to the APS-C crop) so I wouldn't have to back up much (at all?) to get similar framing, and I'd be happier with the resulting look. That's assuming the minimum focus distance of the 85mm was short enough - something that I hadn't thought of before.

There are also the differences in sharpness and pop, too. Perhaps I've just spent too much time looking at oversharpened 85mm images...

I may have time about 3 weeks from now to run a test; rent a 5Dmk2 and a couple of lenses, and shoot some comparisons for myself. It may not be a blind test (to me) but I'm curious about the results now. If I'm not super impressed with the differences it would sure save me from buying a Pentax FF when I could further justify the 645Z ... snerk...
08-29-2014, 02:40 PM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
The rending won't change between formats for a given lens... but I may be misunderstanding what you meant.

I'm ok with the current working distance of 50mm on APS-C, but not the distortion. Going up to 85mm on APS-C (to control distortion) I'd have to be further away from the subject to get similar framing, but that won't work as I'd have to move diagonally up and away from the subjects, and I'm already standing, in that specific case.

If I were shooting FF @ 85mm, I'd have a bunch of extra room around the subject (the bit chopped off due to the APS-C crop) so I wouldn't have to back up much (at all?) to get similar framing, and I'd be happier with the resulting look. That's assuming the minimum focus distance of the 85mm was short enough - something that I hadn't thought of before.

There are also the differences in sharpness and pop, too. Perhaps I've just spent too much time looking at oversharpened 85mm images...

I may have time about 3 weeks from now to run a test; rent a 5Dmk2 and a couple of lenses, and shoot some comparisons for myself. It may not be a blind test (to me) but I'm curious about the results now. If I'm not super impressed with the differences it would sure save me from buying a Pentax FF when I could further justify the 645Z ... snerk...
The pop and better in focus - out of focus transitions, you may have it... it come from the format and the lens (FA77 pop more than a 70-200 zoom...).

The additionnal sharpness you may have it too if your FF has enough pixels.

But the result will not be overall more pleasure for portraiture with a 85mm FF than with 55mm APSC... Both will have similiar look.

---------- Post added 08-29-14 at 11:43 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
FYI, I don't have an A7S. I have an A7R. Doesn't matter, though, the SNR of the A7S shows a fundamental improvement over the SNR of the A7R or any APS-C sensor.
That you that spoke of A7S as having a better sensor... that why I spoke of it. Even through the SNR might improve with it, overall it produce less in most comon situations... It may be interresting on the paper, in practive your are better with your A7R.
08-29-2014, 02:59 PM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
That you that spoke of A7S as having a better sensor... that why I spoke of it. Even through the SNR might improve with it, overall it produce less in most comon situations... It may be interresting on the paper, in practive your are better with your A7R.
I thought I chose my words correctly - I said 'you could argue that the A7S has a better sensor'. I think that's reasonable.

I agree that the A7R is a better choice. That said, the A7S is 'better enough' that I think it will maintain better-ness even when chopped up into 36 million photosites.

08-29-2014, 04:33 PM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
That's also why I didn't pay over a grand for a K-3
I thought it was because hociR is evil and you couldn't get it in red!
Actually magkelly has it right! Use what you like and to heck with what anyone else thinks! What I find interesting is the fact that this forum filled with amazing photos! Better than most of the offerings Picasa or other sites! And almost all are done in aps-c format!!
You can fight and bicker until the cows come home about the physics of it all, but in the end it's person holding the camera that makes or breaks the shot! Otherwise this forum would be stuffed full of average unimpressive photos!
08-29-2014, 04:39 PM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by magkelly Quote
Some people they just like FF and have to have that regardless. Honestly I think it's more than they need, but that's their call to make not mine and it's their money they're willing to burn...
In my case, I want a full frame simply because most of what I have are full frame lenses, and I'd love the chance to shoot them with their original intent.

If I do go full frame, I'll pick up a decent APS-C to go along with and use as a backup, and for the few lenses I have that aren't compatible. I just have to work out the gameplan for it - I'm a bit leery of getting a FF the moment when (if) Pentax releases one because it could be a huge fiasco as well.
08-29-2014, 10:26 PM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sagitta Quote
I'm a bit leery of getting a FF the moment when (if) Pentax releases one because it could be a huge fiasco as well.
If it's an LED festooned fiasco just turn it on, hang it from a ceiling fan, and tell everyone it's a $3500 disco ball.

</sarc>

But I doubt they'd make a FF as gimmicky as the K-S1.
08-30-2014, 01:53 AM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I thought I chose my words correctly - I said 'you could argue that the A7S has a better sensor'. I think that's reasonable.

I agree that the A7R is a better choice. That said, the A7S is 'better enough' that I think it will maintain better-ness even when chopped up into 36 million photosites.
Of course as when it would be put into APSC bodies. But the real difference it provide is small, very small. It is like the K7 - K5 difference for example. Just a small evolution and nothing to justify the buy.

That true that the Sonys (A7R, A7) do not manage to get the most out of their sensor as D600/D800 familly with same sensors get more and that for Sony owner there a little more difference going from A7s from A7R in term of high isos, but even couting that, we are far from an EV difference.

To make things interresting on this topic would be to wait another 2-3 year the generation after, hopping it still improve and we finally gain a full EV.

08-30-2014, 09:25 AM   #189
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
In term of dynamic range, A7s is inferior to K5 and equivalent of K3..
Only at base ISO, and then only slightly. As you move up the ISO range, the A7s kills them:

08-30-2014, 11:25 AM   #190
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jsherman, I understand and hopefully I mean an FF finish by showing better performance than APSC... when pushed for it.

Problem is I shoot iso 100 most of the time... From time to time I shoot 1600-3200 iso... And in even fewer cases 6400. So this A7s will perform better in thoses circonstances... But any good FF will anyway.

I agree that I would high isos setting more often with A7S than my K3... Not only because the A7S perform beter... But because I would have to with the A7S as there no real range of fast lenses anyway.

At least if I buy a D610 I can get the high iso capabilities when I need it, couple it with fast lenses native to the mount and for the most comon case when I shoot base isos I get better dynamic range, more sharpness & more deph of field control from the lenses. A7S is really a niche product that will appear totally old fashionned when it will loose it exclusivity and other maker get even out of the sensor (like Nikon and Pentax usualy do) and have it in 24 & 36MP versions on their cameras.
08-30-2014, 11:36 AM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Only at base ISO, and then only slightly. As you move up the ISO range, the A7s kills them:
Really, with regard to dynamic range, there isn't too much separating those curves till you get to iso 800. It is in the really high iso range that the difference is evident. But if you tend to shoot at low isos, you are less likely to see a difference.
08-30-2014, 12:18 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
jsherman, I understand and hopefully I mean an FF finish by showing better performance than APSC... when pushed for it.

Problem is I shoot iso 100 most of the time... From time to time I shoot 1600-3200 iso... And in even fewer cases 6400. So this A7s will perform better in thoses circonstances... But any good FF will anyway.

I agree that I would high isos setting more often with A7S than my K3... Not only because the A7S perform beter... But because I would have to with the A7S as there no real range of fast lenses anyway.

At least if I buy a D610 I can get the high iso capabilities when I need it, couple it with fast lenses native to the mount and for the most comon case when I shoot base isos I get better dynamic range, more sharpness & more deph of field control from the lenses. A7S is really a niche product that will appear totally old fashionned when it will loose it exclusivity and other maker get even out of the sensor (like Nikon and Pentax usualy do) and have it in 24 & 36MP versions on their cameras.
The A7s is 12mp, the A7 is 24mp and the A7r is 36mp. You know what they say about opinions , they are like .... everyone has one.
08-30-2014, 09:44 PM   #193
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Rondec's pics with his FA77 almost make me think FF is a waste of time/money so I went to Flickr and did a search for FA77 to see what the rest of the world is producing. There is a series of pics of Autumn colours that immediately jumped out at me, clicked them all open in new tabs and started looking a bit closer... 5D 5D 5D K7 Nex5 5D K7.

Had a look then at Rondecs Flickr Stream - hand the man a potato and he could produce fantastic images. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/85914716@N03/)

A APS-C in talented hands produces talented images
A FF in talented hands produces talented images

Every mumtographer with an 1100D posting endless streams of terrible photography to facebook just increases the good/not good ratio in favour of the FF bodies.

Yes I would still buy a Pentax FF if it is released at Photokina, otherwise it is currently $1590 to buy a 6D body here in Australia, less than my K5 cost me! I'll be going down that path.
08-31-2014, 05:32 AM - 1 Like   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ben78 Quote
Had a look then at Rondecs Flickr Stream - hand the man a potato and he could produce fantastic images. (https://www.flickr.com/photos/85914716@N03/)
yeah but bigger potatoes taste better...

There also evidence that frying pans, knifes and plates have been designed with 1,5"x3" potatoes in mind. If you cook potatoes of smaller size you clearly doesn't leverage the full possibilities of your kitchen appliance resulting in second category untastefull meals.

While a good cooker can manage small potatoes, he will undoubtly get supperiors results with big potatoes.
08-31-2014, 07:16 AM   #195
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Big potatoes have definitely contributed to my full frame.
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