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05-10-2019, 12:27 PM - 1 Like   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
Your point has nothing to do with the topic, which is about the technical advantages of larger formats over smaller ones. By saying you don't see any technical advantage, it was a pretty safe bet that you are a one small format shooter, or that you judged everything by reducing it to the lowest quality possible, instagram being the great equalizer.
Brettday's post above is an example of reducing things to the point that technical advantages are not as pronounced. carried to the logical extreme, we could reduce the size of every image to 1x1 pixel to show that there were no advantages of one format over another.
How you can say you've shot multiple formats and say you can't see any technical advantage of a larger one over a smaller one gives rise to another set of questions, one of which would be is Helen Keller your real name?

I'm not debating with you about content trumping format, that is a given. A garbage image is a garbage image no matter how big the medium, but this thread isn't about that.
1. My point is “content is more important”, and since you agree that the content is more important and you don’t want to debate that, which is the only point I want to make, then great, we are actually on the same page!

but I do believe this is still related to this thread, but if you firmly believe that what I said is not relevant here, feel free to report my comments to admin.

2. I never said “I don’t see a difference” and I have no idea why you keep saying that, you can go back and read my comments again. But keep saying this makes you happy, then OK.

3. I don’t post a lot of images on the internet, but even on this forum alone, you can easily find my images shot with K3, K1, MX, Hasselblad Xpan, Hasselblad 500cm, digital 645 and Rolleiflex 3.5. But hey, if it make you happy, sure I have never shot with multiple formats.

5.I don’t think I have replied to your comments on this forum before and I still don’t know which part of my comments offended you (or your belief). But let me say that, you are right man, and I was wrong. As you noticed, I am just as deaf and blind as Helen Keller. After reading your comments, I now realized that there are BIG differences between different formats, form now on I will never judge images through instagram, and I definitely don’t know what I was talking about since I never tired different formats.

You can now take it easy Bill, Saskatchewan is beautiful, Jester is one handsome Rottie, you have a good one and good luck to you and your photography. Please forgive my ignorance comments, thank you.

05-10-2019, 03:29 PM - 1 Like   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by blan01 Quote
1. My point is ďcontent is more importantĒ, and since you agree that the content is more important and you donít want to debate that, which is the only point I want to make, then great, we are actually on the same page!

but I do believe this is still related to this thread, but if you firmly believe that what I said is not relevant here, feel free to report my comments to admin.

2. I never said ďI donít see a differenceĒ and I have no idea why you keep saying that, you can go back and read my comments again. But keep saying this makes you happy, then OK.

3. I donít post a lot of images on the internet, but even on this forum alone, you can easily find my images shot with K3, K1, MX, Hasselblad Xpan, Hasselblad 500cm, digital 645 and Rolleiflex 3.5. But hey, if it make you happy, sure I have never shot with multiple formats.

5.I donít think I have replied to your comments on this forum before and I still donít know which part of my comments offended you (or your belief). But let me say that, you are right man, and I was wrong. As you noticed, I am just as deaf and blind as Helen Keller. After reading your comments, I now realized that there are BIG differences between different formats, form now on I will never judge images through instagram, and I definitely donít know what I was talking about since I never tired different formats.

You can now take it easy Bill, Saskatchewan is beautiful, Jester is one handsome Rottie, you have a good one and good luck to you and your photography. Please forgive my ignorance comments, thank you.
Well that was a bit over the top.
06-25-2019, 03:52 PM - 1 Like   #243
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I've heard so many times that full frame is for pros... well, this is true when someone gets an APSC body, and this is only tool he can rely on, finds some nice subject, makes composition and soon realizes that the final image needs much more surroundings than it can be made by his cropped format, leaving pleasing depth of field intact, there is no other option rather than just click the shutter.

Now professional always knows what he needs for that particular task and gets the job done.

I have seen just countless beautiful images taken with APSC but there are many sitiations where this format is just unable to give you same results as full frame, just like full frame can't compete with medium format.
06-26-2019, 03:39 PM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lev Quote
I've heard so many times that full frame is for pros... well, this is true when someone gets an APSC body, and this is only tool he can rely on, finds some nice subject, makes composition and soon realizes that the final image needs much more surroundings than it can be made by his cropped format, leaving pleasing depth of field intact, there is no other option rather than just click the shutter.

Now professional always knows what he needs for that particular task and gets the job done.

I have seen just countless beautiful images taken with APSC but there are many sitiations where this format is just unable to give you same results as full frame, just like full frame can't compete with medium format.
Here' a chance to test that observation.
Full frame or APS-c, you be the judge. - PentaxForums.com

QuoteQuote:
I have seen just countless beautiful images taken with APSC but there are many sitiations where this format is just unable to give you same results as full frame, just like full frame can't compete with medium format.
I'd point out the reverse is also true. There are some APS_c images you just couldn't take with an MF camera.

In the test above, it was much easier to get APS_c images. The difference between ƒ/5.6 on APS-c and ƒ/8 on FF to achieve the same depth of field meant it was much harder to get keepers on FF than on APS-c because of motion blur in a light breeze. It's not that one is better than the other, it's that they have different strengths.

Going for an everything in focus image in good light a cell phone gets you great DoF at fast apertures. Large format has to be stopped down so much you'd have to have a long exposure even in good light, and that's just not suitable for most subjects.

As long as you're thinking this one camera is better than this one, because of the size of format, you haven't got it figured out yet. You have to know the limitations of every system. Sometimes I walk out the door with my XG-1 1:1.2, because for what I want to do that day, it's the best for the job, which may well be impossible even with FF or APS-c, forget about MF.

You don't find this knowledge on the blogs or test sites, you find this kind of knowledge actually working with the systems. Which I would suggest would be a good thing to do before you launch into this kind of generalization.

06-26-2019, 04:49 PM   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
Norm, I correctly picked the sensor size from low res images in the above blind test. Its just one data point and I won't promise 100% hit rate but there are qualities that sometimes are visible at smaller sizes.
If 6 blind people guessed 1 should get it right. So it is not enough to convince this blind man you see something and there is a 1/6 chance your luck bolstered your confirmation bias completely, and 4/6 chance you get at 1, you can't get 2.

That said I am not saying you didn't see something.
06-27-2019, 12:38 PM   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Here' a chance to test that observation.
Full frame or APS-c, you be the judge. - PentaxForums.com



I'd point out the reverse is also true. There are some APS_c images you just couldn't take with an MF camera.

In the test above, it was much easier to get APS_c images. The difference between É/5.6 on APS-c and É/8 on FF to achieve the same depth of field meant it was much harder to get keepers on FF than on APS-c because of motion blur in a light breeze. It's not that one is better than the other, it's that they have different strengths.

Going for an everything in focus image in good light a cell phone gets you great DoF at fast apertures. Large format has to be stopped down so much you'd have to have a long exposure even in good light, and that's just not suitable for most subjects.

As long as you're thinking this one camera is better than this one, because of the size of format, you haven't got it figured out yet. You have to know the limitations of every system. Sometimes I walk out the door with my XG-1 1:1.2, because for what I want to do that day, it's the best for the job, which may well be impossible even with FF or APS-c, forget about MF.

You don't find this knowledge on the blogs or test sites, you find this kind of knowledge actually working with the systems. Which I would suggest would be a good thing to do before you launch into this kind of generalization.

Who said that one format is "better" than the other? I didn't said that. By the way, who's going to use MF to cover entire depth? Its purpose is exact opposite. Can't agree about knowledge either, theoretical knowledge is valuable, you just make it stronger working with systems.
06-27-2019, 12:42 PM - 1 Like   #247
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QuoteOriginally posted by chaza01 Quote
Why are FF images so much more pleasing than APS-C?
Bragging rights.
06-27-2019, 01:30 PM - 1 Like   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lev Quote
By the way, who's going to use MF to cover entire depth?
Perhaps I'm misreading you but medium and indeed large format is commonly used for landscape and architecture photography. This dof thing is IMHO a strange fixation.

06-27-2019, 01:37 PM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by house Quote
Perhaps I'm misreading you but medium and indeed large format is commonly used for landscape and architecture photography. This dof thing is IMHO a strange fixation.
As per the É/64 club... the exposure times were excruciating.
06-27-2019, 11:08 PM   #250
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Full frame images look better on gallery prints, viewers can look at the prints 1.5x closer than they would in front of an apsc print.
06-29-2019, 06:01 AM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I have seen just countless beautiful images taken with APSC but there are many sitiations where this format is just unable to give you same results as full frame, just like full frame can't compete with medium format.
I see, so "can't compete" isn't the same as better than?
Might want to work on your phrasing bit.

My point was, every format has it's advantages, in some ways a 4x5 can't compete with a point and shoot. You seem to believe (gleaned from your phrasing), the the "can't compete" thing only goes one way.

QuoteOriginally posted by Lev Quote
Can't agree about knowledge either, theoretical knowledge is valuable,
We have so many errors and assumptions caused by mis-interpretation of theoretical knowledge. About 90% of what newbies throw out based on theoretical understanding is wrong.

I don't trust anyone to tell me anything if they haven't used both systems being compared. I don't want to know what someone thinks about. I want to know about their experience. Even in science 60% of the conclusions on scientific papers, aren't supported by the data.

The first rule of scientific review. Read the conclusion, then check the data. Too often researchers with tunnel vision support their hypothesis, but there are other explanations for their data than the conclusion they reached.

A theory without empirical confirmation isn't even a theory, it's a hypothesis, or possibly a notion..

Last edited by normhead; 06-29-2019 at 06:11 AM.
07-12-2019, 01:14 AM   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Even in science 60% of the conclusions on scientific papers, aren't supported by the data.
Is that also a scientific fact?
07-12-2019, 02:28 AM - 1 Like   #253
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Funny that this thread is still going on when the OP has an inactive account and posted his initial post in 2014.

I would say that overall the difference is primarily in the skill of the photographer and the quality of glass. Someone who purchases an entry level APS-C camera and kit lens certainly can take nice photos, but they are unlikely to have the skill that someone who has invested in a K-1 and a couple of FA limiteds would have. For that matter, those who use medium format tend to be a little further along the "serious photographer" side of the curve. The bigger the sensor the more leeway you have with regard to dynamic range and high iso, but certainly that by itself isn't enough to turn a poorly composed, badly lit image into something that people will enjoy looking at.
07-12-2019, 08:58 AM - 1 Like   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Funny that this thread is still going on when the OP has an inactive account and posted his initial post in 2014.

I would say that overall the difference is primarily in the skill of the photographer and the quality of glass. Someone who purchases an entry level APS-C camera and kit lens certainly can take nice photos, but they are unlikely to have the skill that someone who has invested in a K-1 and a couple of FA limiteds would have. For that matter, those who use medium format tend to be a little further along the "serious photographer" side of the curve. The bigger the sensor the more leeway you have with regard to dynamic range and high iso, but certainly that by itself isn't enough to turn a poorly composed, badly lit image into something that people will enjoy looking at.
I dunno. I wasnít a better photographer the day after I got my K1, but the pictures got better instantly. Iíve talked to too many photographers who have noticed the same thing to discount that a bigger format gives better pictures.
I noticed the same thing when I moved from 35mm film to 6x7 and then to 4x5.
I think rather than looking more and more desperately for excuses for why APS-C isnít inferior to larger formats, we should just be accepting that the evidence shows otherwise and move on.
07-12-2019, 09:23 AM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wheatfield Quote
I dunno. I wasnít a better photographer the day after I got my K1, but the pictures got better instantly. Iíve talked to too many photographers who have noticed the same thing to discount that a bigger format gives better pictures.
I noticed the same thing when I moved from 35mm film to 6x7 and then to 4x5.
I think rather than looking more and more desperately for excuses for why APS-C isnít inferior to larger formats, we should just be accepting that the evidence shows otherwise and move on.
Sure.

But you have a very nice collection of high quality Pentax glass that you were shooting on APS-C cameras. But what percentage of folks shooting with a K70 have top end lenses? And they would need to upgrade both body and lens to get into a full frame camera.

For my purposes (I shoot minimal wildlife and macro) the K-1 is significantly better than Pentax APS-C cameras. But I still shoot the same sort of subjects with my K-1 bodies that I did with my K3 when that was my primary body.
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