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08-18-2014, 11:47 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
It's not the equipment, its the photographer. People who buy fullframes are more likely to be really into photography, and thus you can expect a higher proportion of eye opening photos from users of those cameras than your everyday rebel, k-r, or d3000 snapshots.

While ff also holds a technical advantage, it doesn't necessarily lead to better images
I have met several beginners with full frame cameras. A camera is not only a tool; it is also fashion statement. Once people get bored with touch screens and retro button arrangements la Fuji x-e1, full frame is the only thing unique that remains.

08-18-2014, 11:52 AM   #17
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Looking at the search results for that location, I found the images that were taken with longer exposures to be more pleasing (10 - 20 secs).
This would require sturdy support equipment as I assume it is a windy location.
There could be a correlation of photographer experience and technique to equipment used?
08-18-2014, 11:52 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by DominicVII Quote
I have met several beginners with full frame cameras. A camera is not only a tool; it is also fashion statement. Once people get bored with touch screens and retro button arrangements la Fuji x-e1, full frame is the only thing unique that remains.
Yeah someone i know from school decided to get a 6D as his FIRST camera. I asked him why he bought a full frame for his first camera - he replied 'what's full frame' he then proceeded to explain to me why he bought both a Canon and a Sigma lens in the 70-200mm focal range (or whatever it was, same focal length range anyway) because sigmas are apparently 'better for video'.



---------- Post added 08-18-14 at 11:53 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by crewl1 Quote
Looking at the search results for that location, I found the images that were taken with longer exposures to be more pleasing (10 - 20 secs).
There could be a correlation of photographer experience and technique to equipment used?
I didn't think of that, good point.
08-18-2014, 11:56 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by chaza01 Quote
I'll tell you what, could someone post two photos - with both looking very good from a composition standpoint - 1 from a FF, 1 from an aps-c and I'll see if I can tell u which one is which.

Maybe it is 'confirmation bias' but i assure you I was not aware of what camera was used until I checked it each time - and I decided which images were more pleasing immediately.
Why just a couple? There would have to be at least 50 pairs, for a quantative test like this to make sense.

But I see your point: I have occasionally seen a great image and thought to myself that it was obviously shot with a full frame. Sometimes I was right, sometimes wrong.

By the way: if Pentax release a full frame at the same price point as the Sony A7, I will most certainly buy one.


Last edited by DominicVII; 08-18-2014 at 12:02 PM.
08-18-2014, 12:03 PM   #20
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I would agree that FF users tend to be those with more experience and are usually "more serious" about the art and craft vs. the specs. Since they are more into photography than a casual user they are willing to spend more and that's how they get all the cool gear. However, I am willing to bet a lollipop that you can hand these FF owners a smartphone with a camera and they can take some amazing shots with that. It's all about understanding the tool, it's strength, and it's limitations.

I think one of the greatest strengths in addition to potentially lower noise levels and higher dynamic ranges is using a FF lens in its native format. When I use my 50mm lens at f/4 on my K-30 it's actually working like an equivalent 75mm at f/6. That's not a bad thing by itself but means the fast FF lenses turn out to be slower APS equivalents. If you could "uncrop" the lens then you would find yourself moving closer to your subject. That changes the rendering considerably. This is what some APS shooters lament that they are missing out on. We don't mind the crop but we wish the lens were faster in some cases at an easily accessible price point.
08-18-2014, 12:03 PM - 1 Like   #21
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Quick, someone PM Kerrick James (among others) and tell him his APS-C images aren't nearly as good as any random full frame image.

We should write a play and call it the Wizard of Pentax. We could have a character sing, "I wish I had a Full Frame Body" as he fights the Wicked Witch of Ricoh.

Maybe, in the end, a photo taken of the witch with an A700 and a K-Mount adapter will cause her to melt.
08-18-2014, 12:05 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by DominicVII Quote
Why just a couple? There would have to be at least 50 pairs, for a quantative test like this to make sense.

But I see your point: I have occasionally seen a great image and thought to myself that it was obviously shot with a full frame. Sometimes I was right, sometimes wrong.

Why not the A7 adapted?

I want a more rugged camera than my kr but when spending that sort of money on a k3 I begin to think of the benefits of fullframe - most of my lenses are old manual ones which I'd like to use at their original focal lengths..
08-18-2014, 12:09 PM   #23
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The lighting and other things that require a lot of expertise ...even lens choice...as well as a mastery of post processing matters more than sensor size. Experience and expertise almost always trumps gear alone. People have been taking phenomenal shots with a whole lot less gear for a very long time.

08-18-2014, 12:10 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by chaza01 Quote
Why not the A7 adapted?

I want a more rugged camera than my k3 but when spending that sort of money I begin to think of the benefits of fullframe - most of my lenses are old manual ones which I'd like to use at their original focal lengths..
Using adapted lenses is not quite the same as mounting them directly onto the camera. I expect Pentax to introduce a mirrorless full frame in the near future.
08-18-2014, 12:10 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
I would agree that FF users tend to be those with more experience and are usually "more serious" about the art and craft vs. the specs. Since they are more into photography than a casual user they are willing to spend more and that's how they get all the cool gear. However, I am willing to bet a lollipop that you can hand these FF owners a smartphone with a camera and they can take some amazing shots with that. It's all about understanding the tool, it's strength, and it's limitations.

I think one of the greatest strengths in addition to potentially lower noise levels and higher dynamic ranges is using a FF lens in its native format. When I use my 50mm lens at f/4 on my K-30 it's actually working like an equivalent 75mm at f/6. That's not a bad thing by itself but means the fast FF lenses turn out to be slower APS equivalents. If you could "uncrop" the lens then you would find yourself moving closer to your subject. That changes the rendering considerably. This is what some APS shooters lament that they are missing out on. We don't mind the crop but we wish the lens were faster in some cases at an easily accessible price point.
Yes that seems a good point, particularly for ultra wide angles - if image sharpness and distortions become more problematic at wider focal lengths then you want a fullframe so as to achieve equivalent FOV with a better lens I suppose. Agree with you on the 50mm, would use my M f/1.7 much more if it was in 35mm or if I had a FF.

---------- Post added 08-18-14 at 12:14 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by DominicVII Quote
Using adapted lenses is not quite the same as mounting them directly onto the camera. I expect Pentax to introduce a mirrorless full frame in the near future.
Yeah but apart from the q7 and GR system (oh and maybe the k01) they havent had that much experience with mirrorless as competitors esp. Sony whose A7 was in many ways influenced by what they learnt from the NEX system.

Surely pentax are sort of lacking in the R&D department when it comes to decent sensor sized mirrorless cameras?

I certainly hope they come up with a mirrorless though, e.g an ME digital or something. Would be great. It finally allows them to keep the package small.
08-18-2014, 12:21 PM - 1 Like   #26
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Last year I briefly owned an Olympus E-PM2 along with my K-01. I did shoot several nearly-identical landscape-ish pics with each camera utilizing the kit lens at widest-angle (28mm FOV) and optimal aperture (f/8 for Pentax, f/5.6 for Oly). The pics were very similar, with the Oly being slightly sharper. However, I did notice a slight sense of "dimensionality" in the Pentax shot compared with the Oly. Not DOF, not 3D-ness (although that might be closer), just... something. And only in a few shots.

But then I shoot a similar scene with the DA21 and those 2 kit lenses cry into their pillows...
08-18-2014, 12:26 PM - 1 Like   #27
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A world renowned wedding photographer entered into a big annual contest hosted in Las Vegas. It was literally the worlds best photographers...and the one guy (an Australian if I recall) shot the whole thing with an iPhone....only he didn't tell anyone it was shot with an iPhone until after the fact....

Won 4th place out of hundreds of entrants.

http://jerryghionisblog.com/2012/05/the-wedding-of-josh-amber-select-shots-t...he-iphone.html

Last edited by alamo5000; 08-18-2014 at 04:13 PM.
08-18-2014, 12:27 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Probably because the good pictures were taken with FF cameras by real pros as everyone knows APS-C is only used by tourist wanna-be's. </sarc> </joke> </ducking and hiding>
That's exactly right. Everyone knows that serious photographers, you know, the ones that want the only-one-eye-in-focus portraits want FF.
</sarc> </joke> <ducking and hiding>
08-18-2014, 12:37 PM - 1 Like   #29
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After all the processing, cropping and adjusting of so many photos out there, I really cannot say what comes from what. I also don't seek out FF images to savor and feel bad that I cannot precisely reproduce by some measurement or another.

If you love what you do, shots will happen that others will envy. I'm hoping to shoot a Nikon 1 vs Q for resolution checks and such - but you know, if it never happens I'll be just fine. As long as I have something with me to take quick snaps or long-composed 'art' I'll be and images (with minimal PP) will suit me fine.
08-18-2014, 12:51 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Going for popcorn, will be right back
Indeed.


To the OP: More-or-less, APS-C+expensive lens images are indistinguishable from FF images at web sizes.

Sometimes even the expensive lenses aren't expensive enough, though.

The primary difference is in the photographer, and better photographers usually have better gear... even though most great photographs don't require great gear.
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