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08-21-2014, 03:30 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
No, no, tele are indeed very good for buildings. The building shoot I prefer are from my DA50-135.

A few examples from my trip in Florence:


IMGP1073
by Nicolas Bousquet, on Flickr


IMGP1072
by Nicolas Bousquet, on Flickr


IMGP1187
by Nicolas Bousquet, on Flickr


IMGP1398
by Nicolas Bousquet, on Flickr


This is interresting because it change of the distorted wide angle we see everywhere, instead it is usually taken from a window or a terrasse, a tower... It give very interresting shoots.

As for the color, their is nothing like the right lighting, the right hour in the day. You can spend day in PP, with an FF or even MF. The pro that take this kind of shoot will prepare, estimate what is the best hour, check the weather forecast and so on.

Of course once you did all that, you'd better use that 645Z or PhaseOne medium frame anyway. Or for the mere mortal a FF.
great shots Nicolas!

Chris

08-21-2014, 03:55 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
great shots Nicolas!

Chris
Thanks !
08-21-2014, 04:16 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
Well, you live in a very nice place then! I love these old buildings, provided they have not fallen to a ruin state.
I can go along with your observations about over-processed digital imaging and have the same disliking to it. If the colors, details and light are really there, images shouldn't need a lot of enhancements to get the right mood and look. The more you get to start off with (preserved shadow and highlight detail, color detail) the less work to get it right.
When discussing FF versus Apsc, often people start off in a routine like: " FF takes a good photographer to get any benefit from", or: "a good photographer doesn't need FF to take great images." All true maybe, but this to me is reasoning the wrong way round: a good FF camera helps to take away all kinds of (possible) stumble blocks like extensive PP'ing, and helps create more of the right concentration on learning about your lenses, about light, composition etc. Remember: in the film era, a FF camera was much more common and accessible next to compacts with fixed lenses. And film had a great latitude to capture colors and DR.
Just for fun another shot, with only very minimal PP'ing.
Chris
Thanks for that. Your image could be from so many villages round here, this is a very photogenic part of the world to live in.

This article (and a couple of the comments on it below) touches on a lot of the points being discussed here, I think.
08-21-2014, 04:21 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
The more you get to start off with (preserved shadow and highlight detail, color detail) the less work to get it right.
[...]
Remember: in the film era, a FF camera was much more common and accessible next to compacts with fixed lenses. And film had a great latitude to capture colors and DR.
Just for fun another shot, with only very minimal PP'ing.
Chris
I'am really not sure this is linked really to FF (or only). Agree on the Good sharpness you've got. This 36MP available only on FF and Zeiss lenses

For me theses nice colors you show us comes primarily from nice light in the scene.

Second point for me is metering. Outside of the default exposure in Pentax that is maybe a little more, as mirorless A7r can use all the sensor to get perfect exposure. K5 has 77 black & white metering. I do find K3 to expose better than ,K5 and I get less blown out highlight than before. Again not really an FF vs APSC argument.

This is not at all any challenging for the last photo you showed through and I expect no problem here (at least my K5 didn't had for this kind of scenes).

Third point, you might appreciate more Sony rendering. In Dxo, you can use Sony A7r rendering and colors even if you use a K5. Put it in your default profile, so no time spent on this.

To really be sure it come from sensor size and not Metering, Sony color profile or simply a more modern camera would require some testing...

As for FF film, it doesn't record that much dynamic range, sharpness is beaten by 10MP APSC. Iso is really bad. Colors: that would depend on the film...


Last edited by Nicolas06; 08-21-2014 at 11:24 PM.
08-21-2014, 09:19 PM - 1 Like   #110
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You can stuff an extra camera gnome inside a FF to process the pixie dust.
08-22-2014, 05:47 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
I'm pretty sure if I use Rory Mcilroy's golf clubs, I can get my handicap under 30 ....
I feel the same way about guitars. I'm positive that if I could just get my hands on one of Jimi Hendrix's guitars I'd be a much better guitarist.
08-22-2014, 08:20 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
As far as I've seen lenses affect color transmission as much as anything else
...and people wonder why I still keep my Jupiter-9 even though I have a FA 77 Limited in the bag...


Steve
08-22-2014, 11:55 AM - 2 Likes   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lowell Goudge Quote
I don't buy this (or full frame in general)

I have seen a ton of inexperienced photographers getting or wanting full frame because they simply believe getting the best either at any price, or because it makes them instantly better photographers

There is even one recent forum poster who has been shooting for 2 years, has the two lens zoom kit, a Tammy 28-75 and a 100mm macro, claiming he needs full frame because he is shooting pro, With Kit lenses no less

Rally now. A full frame will not give him anything beyond lower resolution with his kit lenses. Who's kidding who here?
This is me you are referring to, and I never once said that full frame would make my photos better, never insisted I was professional, never said i NEED anything, and I never once took a serious shot on either of my pentax kit lenses, so I don't know where you got half of this bile from. And I certainly don't need a pretentious guy misquoting me on the Internet. I simply said that I liked the way that specifically the Canon 5D series rendered their images in terms of grain and color. I have been shooting THREE years, yes, I know, huge difference but after renting a 5DmkII and playing with my uncle's old Minolta film SLR, I can honestly say FOR ME, the FEEL is different with the bigger brighter viewfinder, and I also enjoy the DOF flexibility.

Yes I don't have $2000+ glass, but I have taken some GREAT photos with my cheap 50mm, 28-75 and moderately priced Pentax 100, and made some decent money to boot, just like I'm sure I'll take great pictures if I do end up going full frame full-time. So in response to the OP, what I've learned is this:

Do what makes you happy and screw everyone else. If you wanna go full-frame, go full frame, if you wanna shoot full-time on a freaking iPhone 3GS, go right ahead. If you wanna put on neon pleather pants and take time-lapse photos of paint drying with a $2000 macro lens, do it proudly if it makes you happy. As Pentax shooters we should already know this in a world dominated by Canon and Nikon. So to some other posters here, how about being constructive instead of condescending?


Last edited by brandonbpm; 08-22-2014 at 12:00 PM.
08-22-2014, 01:48 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
As for FF film, it doesn't record that much dynamic range, sharpness is beaten by 10MP APSC. Iso is really bad. Colors: that would depend on the film...
You are right, film had its limits, certainly at small format. I meant to say: film had a great latitude for keeping highlights. Blowing highlights has to me been a real downside to digital apsc,. The pentax k5 finally got to a point where that did not dominate digital shooting so noticeably. The Sony A7r is the best in this regard that I've had the pleasure to shoot with.

Chris
08-22-2014, 03:29 PM   #115
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Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by brandonbpm Quote
This is me you are referring to, and I never once said that full frame would make my photos better, never insisted I was professional, never said i NEED anything, and I never once took a serious shot on either of my pentax kit lenses, so I don't know where you got half of this bile from. And I certainly don't need a pretentious guy misquoting me on the Internet. I simply said that I liked the way that specifically the Canon 5D series rendered their images in terms of grain and color. I have been shooting THREE years, yes, I know, huge difference but after renting a 5DmkII and playing with my uncle's old Minolta film SLR, I can honestly say FOR ME, the FEEL is different with the bigger brighter viewfinder, and I also enjoy the DOF flexibility.

Yes I don't have $2000+ glass, but I have taken some GREAT photos with my cheap 50mm, 28-75 and moderately priced Pentax 100, and made some decent money to boot, just like I'm sure I'll take great pictures if I do end up going full frame full-time. So in response to the OP, what I've learned is this:

Do what makes you happy and screw everyone else. If you wanna go full-frame, go full frame, if you wanna shoot full-time on a freaking iPhone 3GS, go right ahead. If you wanna put on neon pleather pants and take time-lapse photos of paint drying with a $2000 macro lens, do it proudly if it makes you happy. As Pentax shooters we should already know this in a world dominated by Canon and Nikon. So to some other posters here, how about being constructive instead of condescending?
Ohh burnnnn! Ahahahahaha such a legend
08-22-2014, 03:29 PM   #116
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I shoot FF, APS-C, m43 and compact all the time. Unless I pixel peep, I really can't tell the difference in output. That's my honest observation. If there's one thing that I like in a FF, it's the huge viewfinder, which btw, you can also get in the Oly E-M1 (same size as D800).

Having said that, I noticed that I get more keepers with my FF D700 not because it's a better camera but because it is a difficult camera. I needlessly have to wrestle with it all the time and that makes me tend to doublecheck and triplecheck everything. With my D700 I feel like I'm shooting with my film cameras. It's a psychological thing.
08-23-2014, 03:21 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chris Mak Quote
You are right, film had its limits, certainly at small format. I meant to say: film had a great latitude for keeping highlights. Blowing highlights has to me been a real downside to digital apsc,. The pentax k5 finally got to a point where that did not dominate digital shooting so noticeably. The Sony A7r is the best in this regard that I've had the pleasure to shoot with.

Chris
Agree with you. My understanding is film as more tolerance on highlight and digital sensor like K5 have more tolerance on shadows. So if you make an error in exposure on digital by overexposing, you have soon a problem.

Wit the K5 you only have a 77point metering sensor that is quite basic. A7r has 1200 point metering... And k3 has 80K+ point metering sensor.

An interresting view on A7r metering: http://www.thephoblographer.com/2013/10/30/finding-wrong-sony-a7-a7r-far/

"However, Sony’s algorithms seem to be metering the overall scene and putting more emphasis on the highlights. In general, we’ve found that the system underexposes by a full stop–and in order to get anything nearly perfect we’re overexposing our images by a stop. The issue seems to be lessened when we use strobes though. However, metering is incredibly important overall."

That maybe why you get what you want out of the Sony... It does exposure to the right (and it make sense) but then some are not very happy with it. Maybe just under expose with the K5 by default (like 0.3 or 0.7) and you would get what you want !

Going from my K5 to K3 I did see an improvement with exposureand I guess you simply get the kind of improvement on A7r due to maybe better algorithms and also a better sensor.

For the kind of shoot you given through I never had problem. Maybe we would not see the same color. I was not on the scene... This is something to really check but for me that also just a rendering profile away. (So the test need something like DxO, raw and using same rendering profile for both camera to see if there are noticable colors differences).

Honestly I'am really happy for you, that you enjoy this A7r. My understanding you do manual focussing of some Zeiss with it and that perfectly fine. For this the A7r might be one of the best options !

Me this not what I'am after. There no enough lenses choices out of the box from Sony. All expensive, all zoom f/4, only 2 prime f/1.8 & f/2.8 worth. Many complain of lack of wide apperture lenses for pentax. Here it is worse. And the lenses are not that small neither. I'am sure they are very high quality, but there not much choice.
08-23-2014, 06:32 AM   #118
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Wrt the thread title's question ...

First, let me say I don't believe the assumption to hold true, once photographer and observation bias are factored out.

But if such a phenomenon should exist indeed, I'd say it's psychology within the photographer ... With my FF camera, I noticed I stopped caring about the technical aspects, trusting it simply will be good enough anyway.

Speaking about myself personally, I think it may help me to become a better photographer. However, I don't always carry an FF body, so there are less snapshots taken with it.
08-23-2014, 06:46 AM   #119
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This "study" quantifies the difference between Full Frame and Micro Four-Thirds:

Investigative Report: Is Micro Four Thirds Doomed? | New Camera News

APS-C, of course, falls somewhere in between.

Btw, please don't tell my publisher that I use APS-C, M43, 1", and Q - that would be the end of me!
08-23-2014, 07:09 AM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Wrt the thread title's question ...

First, let me say I don't believe the assumption to hold true, once photographer and observation bias are factored out.

But if such a phenomenon should exist indeed, I'd say it's psychology within the photographer ... With my FF camera, I noticed I stopped caring about the technical aspects, trusting it simply will be good enough anyway.

Speaking about myself personally, I think it may help me to become a better photographer. However, I don't always carry an FF body, so there are less snapshots taken with it.
There's is only one person I know of, who shot one image with a K-01 and one with a D800 and showed the images printed at A3 to an independent person who didn't know which was which... and the results were inconclusive. The blind tester said she could see there was a difference, but she couldn't say the difference made the image better.

To me, this is this only test of it's kind, that I know of, and I'm going with it, until I see better evidence. Some data is better than speculation, no matter how bad the test design may be. The fact that sites like IR print recommended print sizes etc. without doing research like this is to say the least distressing. We have people passing themselves off as experts... based on as far as I can tell... nothing.

We had another member test images printed at 72 dpi 100 dpi and 150 dpi, and asking a class of 20 people which was which, led to the discovery that while 72 dpi is "different" 100 dpi and 150 dpi were indistinguishable.

There is a lot of unsupported speculation out there being passed off as fact. It's funny, in the car industry we know commercials deliberately stretch the truth to sell us stuff we don't need. But the photo industry gets agree pass on this kind of thing. The thing i wonder, are we being sold larger camera etc. for images that while there may be a difference, in terms of use enjoyment, it's quite possible there would be no difference.

There is not one shred of evidence that anyone would enjoy a 200 dpi print less than a 300 dpi print.. I know the printer can see the difference, there is just no evidence that the customer cares about what the printer sees.
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