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09-13-2014, 03:29 PM   #46
osv
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The fact that to make these arguments, that people can tell the difference you continually discount real world blind tests and go with your own biases, which undoubtedly cloud your judgement when making these kinds of judgements. As a largely un-interested observer, I shoot APS-c but I'm not married to it. I also shoot cell phone and water proof point and shoot, and the continuous observation from years of doing this would be that FF users continually over-estimate the value of their cameras
i don't see any ff experience listed there.

have you ever actually edited a 36mp image?

because there are things going on at that level that you don't have a clue about.

i agree that ff is no panacea; i've posted multiple examples of how field curvature with legacy glass is absolutely brutal.

but once you've experienced 36mp, there is no going back.

the overall picture is much bigger than what you've tried to reduce down to this little web comparison thread.

for example; a7r vs. mkIII... Sony A7R teams up with Canon glass

09-14-2014, 07:42 AM   #47
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QuoteQuote:
i don't see any ff experience listed there.
Exactly my point... if you have to have FF experience to tell the difference, then maybe it's a technical difference only of interest to techno-geeks.


QuoteQuote:
have you ever actually edited a 36mp image?
Only a few FF cameras are 36 mp, but hey, keep mixing things up to make your point...

QuoteQuote:
but once you've experienced 36mp, there is no going back.
Reality dictates that I know a few people who have gone back for whatever reason... not everyone is a resolution freak.

I could say "once you've experienced 24MP APS_c with a 400mm lens there;s not going back, but I wouldn't because those kinds of statements are personal and pointless. Essentailly , you don't own what I own so you're stupid". Well.. buying a particular system doesn't make you smart. It just means you paid a lot for a system. The fact that you might actually have needs that make that system necessary is also irrelevant, probably to almost everyone but you.

QuoteQuote:
the overall picture is much bigger than what you've tried to reduce down to this little web comparison thread.
"what you've tried to reduce it to." You mean what I had to reduce it to because of the limitations of web hosting forums and display of web pages. You make it sound like I have some kind of control over those things. First, as I pointed out earlier in the thread, this is by no means anything more than an attempt to have a little fun... so read the thread, find out the parameters try and limit your pent up anger to discussing things of relevance.

Post your self righteous, out of place, angry "have to justify my purchase" comments in a more appropriate thread.

When folks are just having a bit of fun, it's absolutely rude to come in and trash them for it.

As I said, I have absolutely no respect for those who come into a thread and get all critical, but can't demonstrate their points with a few images. So, I guess where that leaves you?

Try reading though the thread, most of your complaints have already been addressed.

The thread was little harmless game to see if guys could tell the difference at web size... so interesting, some people chose not to play the game, but felt they had to post in the thread to criticize it... why is that? Given the parameters, (870 pixel wide images), is the result not totally predictable?

And the one detail left hanging in the thread, was at what size does 36 MP start to pull away from 24 in resolution, because it clearly doesn't at 870 pixels wide, you chose not to address at all. Even though you claim to have the ability to do so.

Last edited by normhead; 09-14-2014 at 04:31 PM.
09-14-2014, 11:09 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i agree that ff is no panacea; i've posted multiple examples of how field curvature with legacy glass is absolutely brutal.
Thanks for the heads up regarding a failing of all legacy lenses. it is a pity that the people who tested that stuff and published the results back-in-the-day were such dolts.


Steve

(A few waffle words such as "may be" rather than "is" yields a sentence that has the potential of being much more accurate.)
09-14-2014, 11:33 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Exactly my point... if you have to have FF experience to tell the difference, then maybe it's a technical difference only of interest to techno-geeks.
latitude is a pretty simple concept, and i provided clear pics that illustrated it well... hardly "techno-geek"

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Only a few FF cameras are 36 mp, but hey, keep mixing things up to make your point...
so now you want to change the parameters of the discussion you started, after the fact?

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Reality dictates that I know a few people who have gone back for whatever reason... not everyone is a resolution freak.
agreed, some people don't care about p.q., cropability, latitude, dynamic range, etc.

or, as in your case, they deliberately ignore those advantages, in order to promote a failed crop sensor agenda.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Post your self righteous, out of place, angry "have to justify my purchase" comments in a more appropriate thread.
you started a thread trying to justify your crop sensor inferiority complex, and then you got offended when multiple people didn't agree with your failed logic.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
As I said, I have absolutely no respect for those who come into a thread and get all critical, but can't demonstrate their points with a few images. So, I guess where that leaves you?
i have little respect for people who ignore images that prove simple concepts like file latitude... where does that leave you?

---------- Post added 09-14-2014 at 11:36 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Thanks for the heads up regarding a failing of all legacy lenses. it is a pity that the people who tested that stuff and published the results back-in-the-day were such dolts.


Steve

(A few waffle words such as "may be" rather than "is" yields a sentence that has the potential of being much more accurate.)
if you had used "some" or "most" rather than all it would have been much more accurate.

lol

09-14-2014, 02:03 PM - 1 Like   #50
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I think everyone agrees that there are real world benefits to shooting full frame over APS-C and other smaller sensor sizes. The question is at what point are these really visible. What print size/viewing size, aperture, and iso do you need to be at to actually see a difference that most folks will clearly agree on. Clearly, if all you do is shoot for facebook and print at 8 by 10 and less, seldom shoot over iso 1600, you are much less likely to see a "real world" difference, whatever latitude you might have in editing files. On the other hand, if you routinely are wishing your 55mm lens on APS-C opened a stop wider or, you are at iso 3200 and wishing it was cleaner, or printing really large and wishing there was more detail, then maybe a larger sensor size is what is needed to get you there.

It isn't magic.

Moving up a sensor size doesn't give you mad photography skills you didn't have before. It doesn't instill a luminance into your photos that was missing before. It gives you a stop better SNR, dynamic range, and ability to print a little bigger. And all of these things depend more than a little on the glass you use and the sensor tech in the camera brand you choose.

I routinely look at the photos in the full frame thread and I enjoy them a lot. But I can't say I enjoy them any more than I do the photos in the four thirds thread or, any of the APS-C threads out there. Probably if I saw them printed 36 inches on a side, I would be super-impressed, but my 1080p screen just doesn't reveal them in all their "glory."

I have said before that I would really like a full frame camera from Pentax. I just don't see at as a holy grail item that some folks seem to believe it is.

Last edited by Rondec; 09-15-2014 at 02:41 AM.
09-14-2014, 02:09 PM   #51
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Normhead has made a good point. What i so often read on the typical gear forums is that FF is superior because the resolution numbers show it is. What many people overlook is real world practicality, such as needs and application.

A. Portability of bodies and lenses. A camera that needs a car for transport is of less use for extensive walking shoots, such as street shooters, hikers, airport travelers, etc.

B. Expected end use of those images, if any. If the end use is the internet, than 700 pixels is just fine. If its 8x10 or 8x12" prints, that aps is again just fine. I have many times sold 20"x30" prints through 1 person shows or a gallery like i'm in now, images from my Pentax aps cameras. I also decorate the lobby of a large community playhouse with pictures from play dress rehearsals. Last month, i used about 15 pictures taken by a gal that runs the ticket office, taken on a Leica superzoom type bridge camera with a 1/2" size sensor IIRC. (i've been encouraging theater staff to take more pictures) And i was happily surprised by the quality of the 8x10/12" prints - all very sharp, but of course with large dof as well - typical of smaller lenses. But the theater customers liked them. Thats an anecdote from the real world out there.

C. According to a poll on PF a few years ago, 1/3 of photographers never get a picture printed. Only 1/3 of photographers actually get pictures printed on any regular basis.

D. If you're a photography professional, then you're going to know the type of camera you need. Statistics from 2013, showed that FF cameras had only penetrated 9% of the DSLR market, the rest were APS crop sensors. As a percentage of all ILC cameras, i.e. DSLRs and mirrorless ILC, then that percentage would likely be even smaller, say 7 percent of total worldwide. I don't have actual numbers for 2014 for FF sales, perhaps someone else does. Nikon seems to believe that all photographers in mass will buy FF cameras. Wall street isn't buying that notion and either am I. APS and m4/3s will be around for a long time.

FF cameras as a percentage of ILC cameras, will likely grow slowly, as the trade-offs become apparent to the buying public.
09-14-2014, 04:48 PM   #52
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Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/169-pentax-full-frame/270828-ok-guys-4.html#ixzz3DKu4UH5P

QuoteQuote:
you started a thread trying to justify your crop sensor inferiority complex, and then you got offended when multiple people didn't agree with your failed logic.
I tried to justify my "crop sensor inferiority complex" with an 870 pixel image?.. do you not understand what an fool you're making of yourself?

This is a joke/game thread dude, that happens to make the point that if you only do your pictures at 870 Pixels wide, maybe you don't need a 36 MP Full Frame, which really is pretty common knowledge anyway. Go find some one (who might take you seriously) 's thread to mess up.

You just joined the group of serious losers who if I said an APS-c camera paper makes a better paper weight than a Full Frame would argue with me. Enjoy your new found friends.

Last edited by normhead; 09-14-2014 at 06:25 PM.
09-14-2014, 07:50 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
if you had used "some" or "most" rather than all it would have been much more accurate.
Some people have difficulty detecting sarcasm or wit. Not my fault.


Steve

09-15-2014, 12:39 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I tried to justify my "crop sensor inferiority complex" with an 870 pixel image?..
are you asking us to analyze your behavior? the failed logic, and all of the ignorant argumentative posts that you've made in this thread?

save it for your shrink
09-15-2014, 12:50 PM   #55
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I don't have need a shrink, and yours obviously isn't any good .
09-15-2014, 12:53 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Come on now, you really don't think as a former teacher, I'd make all of one odd and all of the other even? I did take a course on "test design" you know.
My guess, I've written at least 500 multiple choice tests.

---------- Post added 08-20-14 at 04:00 PM ----------



The arrows on that set are because they are both photobucket screen caps... actually they all are (I figured out how to avoid the arrows on the others.), that way whatever Photobucket does to them is constant among the images. I do put a little time into these things, retired as I am.
Well, in advanced tests, its best to avoid multiple guess.
09-15-2014, 12:55 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Normhead has made a good point. What i so often read on the typical gear forums is that FF is superior because the resolution numbers show it is. What many people overlook is real world practicality, such as needs and application.

A. Portability of bodies and lenses. A camera that needs a car for transport is of less use for extensive walking shoots, such as street shooters, hikers, airport travelers, etc.
agreed, mirrorless full-frame is smaller than slr cameras are.

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
B. Expected end use of those images, if any. If the end use is the internet, than 700 pixels is just fine. If its 8x10 or 8x12" prints, that aps is again just fine.
that depends... do you need:

1) better dynamic range and more latitude... does everyone understand that those things are entirely different?
2) higher resolution gives better results, when doing distortion correction and stitching, among other things.

24mp ff vs. 24mp crop sensor is probably what poor normhead was thinking when he started his silly thread, but with the advent of sony 12mp ff and 36mp ff, things became a bit more complicated.
09-15-2014, 05:58 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Well, in advanced tests, its best to avoid multiple guess.
I taught technical subjects i.e. shop. If I made an advanced test everybody would fail. I did get the odd advanced student, but I just let them have their stinking 98% rather than punish the others.

---------- Post added 09-15-14 at 09:07 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
agreed, mirrorless full-frame is smaller than slr cameras are.



that depends... do you need:

1) better dynamic range and more latitude... does everyone understand that those things are entirely different?
2) higher resolution gives better results, when doing distortion correction and stitching, among other things.

24mp ff vs. 24mp crop sensor is probably what poor normhead was thinking when he started his silly thread, but with the advent of sony 12mp ff and 36mp ff, things became a bit more complicated.
Dude , what I was thinking when I started the thread was "hey I know a guy with a D800, I took him out in the park for a few trips. lets take a few of his images and a few of mine off photo bucket taken at about the seam time and see if people can tell the difference.It will be fun." It is so sad to see how dense you are, trying to make up all the ulterior motives you think I have. I have told you time and time again, no one is trying to prove a point.. think of it as a little contest to see who could get them right first... I don't know if you're really stupid or just totally fixated on who or what you think I am, but you've totally missed the point, you'r out in space creating reality that exists no where except inside your own brain, and I truly wish you'd stop it. Reality seems to run off your back like water off a duck. I don't know how else to say this to you,

It was a bit of fun, no ulterior motive, no big conclusions, a fun type contest. You guys refusing to play and getting all critical of everything, I feel sorry for you. You are truly pathetic. IN the future do yourselves a favour and stay out of my threads. You haven't got a clue what they are about, and can't be told. And you take the fun out of everything for everyone else.
09-22-2014, 01:24 PM   #59
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Norm - didn't seem like a 'fun' question to me, and it appears a lot of others here. It always seems like you come to the full-frame subforum with an axe to grind and piss in your vinegar.
09-23-2014, 11:16 AM   #60
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These types of threads will go away as soon as a Pentax FF is available and pre-ordered.
The focus will then shift from how APS-C and FF are indistinguishable, to how Pentax FF is noticeably superior to Canon/Nikon FF at even small prints.
And how DPR didn't give it a Gold+ rating, they only gave it a Gold...and how they didn't review it quickly enough.
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