Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
09-23-2014, 07:58 PM   #76
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,893
There's still a lot of reason to mount Pentax glass on a Pentax camera.

---------- Post added 09-23-14 at 08:44 PM ----------



09-24-2014, 02:50 AM   #77
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 15,989
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
and you also don't care about resolution, d.r., latitude, color depth, and all the other ways that full frame 36mp blows away your crippled crop sensor pentax.

you claim that you want a light rig, but you'd rather lug that heavy pig of dslr around, instead of mounting pentax glass on an a7r.

it's comical!!

---------- Post added 09-23-2014 at 07:47 PM ----------



that's the same approach that sony was taking for the fe mount primes, and they have taken a lot of heat for it.

the fe 35/2.8 weighs 120g.
the fe 55/1.8 weighs 281g.

Smc PENTAX DA 35mm F2.8 Macro Limited weighs 215g.
Smc PENTAX DA Star 55mm F1.4 SDM weighs 375g.

so pentax is quite a bit heavier than full frame sony... but don't tell poor normhead, it'll just get him confused
I'm not familiar with the Sony lenses and their performance. From what I've read, the FE 35 relies quite a bit on in-camera corrections to take care of vignetting.

Materials make a big difference in weight. The DA 35 and DA 55 have heavier construction. If you choose plastic lenses like the DA 35 f2.4 (125 g) or the FA 50 f1.4 (221 g) the lenses are lighter.
09-24-2014, 05:41 AM   #78
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,533
Original Poster
Full Frames don't blow my K-3 away in resolution, a D810, or Sony A7r, and I believe one of the $7,000 Canons does as well, but most FF don't. In fact there are enough full frames that don't match my K-3 in resolution only a illiterate person would say such a thing. If you can read, you should know better. Same with colour depth and dynamic range.

YOU need to get a life and get off the forum, no one needs you here, you have no useful information.

Normhead is thinking of buying a Sony Full frame so don't tell Norm Head, you're wasting your breath, he already knows. In fact compared to you, he knows quite a bit. He knows which Full Frames a K-3 out resolves, he knows which Full Frames don't have the dynamic range of a K-3. He knows that in a lot of ways a K-3 blows every full frame out of the water. Stuff you clearly don't have a clue about. He knows every format has advantages and disadvantages and that APS-c has it's fair share of both.

And he knows that folks with immature mentalities like yourself will come into these threads and blow a gasket, because your core Full Frame Religious beliefs are going to be challenged.

Thanks for dropping buy, try and absorb a few facts while you're here.

Or just take in the pictures at the start of the thread. You don't even have to be able to read.

Last edited by normhead; 09-24-2014 at 05:47 AM.
09-24-2014, 09:21 AM   #79
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I'm not familiar with the Sony lenses and their performance. From what I've read, the FE 35 relies quite a bit on in-camera corrections to take care of vignetting.
yes, it does have significant vignetting, but it can be turned off when processing the raw file... notice how the 2.8t-stop number, when mounted on the a7r, matches the 2.8 aperture number of the lens... sensor gain turned up all the way across the sensor? makes sense, since vignetting stretches well into the entire frame.

here is a 3-way comparison, with the sony fe35 on the 24mp nex7 camera... i think that mirrorless cameras keep the sensor heated up all the time? might account for the slightly lower mpix score, vs. the pentax... however:

fe35/a7r: 22P-mpix
da35/k3: 13P-mpix

so we see that, contrary to the bogus garbage that normhead keeps posting full frame completely blows away the best crop sensor gear that pentax has and the rig is a whole lot lighter as well.

Attached Images
 
09-24-2014, 09:41 AM   #80
Veteran Member
adwb's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bristol UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,631
Interesting and amusing (at times) thread, especially since I am getting rid of 2 K5 bodies and have spent ages looking at and comparing D810, A7r, and the k3.

I have downloaded raw images from test websites , and I have come to my own conclusions which way I will go, and since weight is not a concern as I am still a fit 65 year old, it is only dynamic range and that unquantifiable feel that some camera/lens combinations give that concern me.

What did surprise me is that the FF and the K3 images sizes are the same and at native full size printing they are effectively A2 poster size against the smaller A3+ for the k 5 variants.

Given I am also looking for a more croppable size I had thought the A7r as a FF was a solution because I can still use my existing lenses albeit with an adapter and in manual, but I think i can save money and just use the K3 instead, its either that or bite the bullet and get 645D and a 55mm , as I said weight don't concern me.

as to the OP's original question I am unsure which is which and would be interested in the eventual answer
09-24-2014, 11:56 AM   #81
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
a7r pics are 7360x4912, vs. ~6000x4000 for a 24mp sensor like the k3.

looking at k3 vs. 36mp vs. 645d is a pretty wide range of gear, take another look at what it is that you really want to shoot.

if manual focus is what you want, the a7r is the best camera on the market, largely because of focus peaking/magnification on the oled evf... but the d810 has it's own advantages as well.

k3 would be the most practical, and cost effective choice.

the a7r/d800 cameras have rendered the 645d obsolete, because they outperform it... the same thing will happen with the 645z, within two years.
09-24-2014, 12:38 PM   #82
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,533
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by adwb Quote
Interesting and amusing (at times) thread, especially since I am getting rid of 2 K5 bodies and have spent ages looking at and comparing D810, A7r, and the k3.

I have downloaded raw images from test websites , and I have come to my own conclusions which way I will go, and since weight is not a concern as I am still a fit 65 year old, it is only dynamic range and that unquantifiable feel that some camera/lens combinations give that concern me.

What did surprise me is that the FF and the K3 images sizes are the same and at native full size printing they are effectively A2 poster size against the smaller A3+ for the k 5 variants.

Given I am also looking for a more croppable size I had thought the A7r as a FF was a solution because I can still use my existing lenses albeit with an adapter and in manual, but I think i can save money and just use the K3 instead, its either that or bite the bullet and get 645D and a 55mm , as I said weight don't concern me.

as to the OP's original question I am unsure which is which and would be interested in the eventual answer
I've been going through the same process, but I tend to focus, not on test images but on images posted on the forum. The first thing people need to realize is that it tales all kinds of technique to get max. res out of any system. I went out today and shot just using the tripod as brace, guess what, I'm going out again this evening. I doubt using a 36 or 51MP image would have made much difference. Maybe if i did everything right.

So I'm in pretty much the same boat as you. An A7r is the logical addition, especially since for me weight is important and the chances of Pentax coming out with a A7r copy s pretty slim. Switching brands or going 645 means two sets of lenses. That's a non-starter... I don't like carrying a K-5 and a K-3, or even my K-01 and K-3, so why would I want to carry a traditional Pentax DSLR and a K-3? I wouldn't. But, the IQ I get with my K-3 is excellent. Do I need anything? it's only 20% more resolution and a bit more low light and high ISO performance. But the 645z is better at all those things.

Round and round it goes... my default position is always, buy nothing... but I could decide to spring for an A7r or 645z at any moment.As soon as it all becomes clear. The A7r would be the functional compromise, the 645z would make me king of the hill, until the next big thing comes out.

But a K-3 is darn good.

Read back up through the thread to get the answer, someone got it right, probably on the first page.
APS-c is 1,3,6
09-24-2014, 02:38 PM   #83
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,533
Original Poster
QuoteQuote:
so we see that, contrary to the bogus garbage that normhead keeps posting full frame completely blows away the best crop sensor gear that pentax has and the rig is a whole lot lighter as well.
If you had a clue what I was saying, I might believe you're right. But the things you do just keep emphasizing, you don't have a clue.

But is the question, what cameras have the best numbers on the measurebating sites, which are not even statically valid? Or is the best way to compare pictures. You can post all the DxO numbers you want, but you haven't proved a thing about pictures. Only about a set of measurements performed in an extremely biased manner.
OK you tell me smart guy... why do the FF and APS-c images at the start of this thread look indistinguishable, and at what point does FF start to take the lead? And where are the numbers on the measurebating sites that predict this?

09-24-2014, 04:00 PM   #84
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 15,989
QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
yes, it does have significant vignetting, but it can be turned off when processing the raw file... notice how the 2.8t-stop number, when mounted on the a7r, matches the 2.8 aperture number of the lens... sensor gain turned up all the way across the sensor? makes sense, since vignetting stretches well into the entire frame.

here is a 3-way comparison, with the sony fe35 on the 24mp nex7 camera... i think that mirrorless cameras keep the sensor heated up all the time? might account for the slightly lower mpix score, vs. the pentax... however:

fe35/a7r: 22P-mpix
da35/k3: 13P-mpix

so we see that, contrary to the bogus garbage that normhead keeps posting full frame completely blows away the best crop sensor gear that pentax has and the rig is a whole lot lighter as well.
I wish I could see a comparison on the A7 -- 24 megapixel full frame -- versus the K3 24 megapixel APS-C. I would imagine that the full frame would do better, but I wonder how much better? I checked the DXO Mark site and they don't have any lens tests for the A7. Photozone measured vignetting (uncorrected) at a fiercesome 2.6 EVs and even corrected at 1.4 EVs. That's pretty bad. It is probably fixable in post with lower isos, but not good.

I do wonder how native wide angles will do on the A7r, with its shorter registration distance that could become an issue.

Last edited by Rondec; 09-24-2014 at 04:05 PM.
09-24-2014, 05:10 PM   #85
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,893
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I wish I could see a comparison on the A7 -- 24 megapixel full frame -- versus the K3 24 megapixel APS-C. I would imagine that the full frame would do better, but I wonder how much better? I checked the DXO Mark site and they don't have any lens tests for the A7. Photozone measured vignetting (uncorrected) at a fiercesome 2.6 EVs and even corrected at 1.4 EVs. That's pretty bad. It is probably fixable in post with lower isos, but not good.

I do wonder how native wide angles will do on the A7r, with its shorter registration distance that could become an issue.
If I recall correctly (I may not), the A7 still has an AA filter. Don't know if it matters to you. You could find out a reasonable proxy (with different lenses) by comparing, say, the D600 to the K3.
09-24-2014, 05:25 PM - 1 Like   #86
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,533
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
If I recall correctly (I may not), the A7 still has an AA filter. Don't know if it matters to you. You could find out a reasonable proxy (with different lenses) by comparing, say, the D600 to the K3.
Exactly.... once you decide to do something, you can find some way of finding out to your satisfaction. But for me, the images in the Pentax glass on Sony FF thread are the ones of interest. They not only tell me what's possible, they show me what I'm likely to get. The forum has an incredible number of users and they use an incredible number of systems. You can find reliable resources for just about any situation. All you need to do is figure out where you fit in.

I definitely fit into the more low res.. sunset and landscape category. I actually find many of my low res prints kind of like paintings, dreamy, not meant to be taken literally, but a representation of the essence. Many in these kinds of debates are striving for the best possible technical accuracy, or most expensive technical system they can afford. It's a philosophical difference that is rarely bridged.

So when someone says, well this or that company has better lenses, that is only of interest to a few of us. Most of us are looking for a "representation" of reality, not the literal truth. Two different interpretations that require different gear and a different mindset. Some of my pictures today resemble paint splotches... I like that.



For me, rendition is more important than resolution, and I always shoot at 100-400 ISO so high ISO performance is not so important. Although I would like something a bit better for wildlife. Unfortunately the A7r probably isn't it, although, who knows?
09-24-2014, 06:06 PM   #87
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 15,989
QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
If I recall correctly (I may not), the A7 still has an AA filter. Don't know if it matters to you. You could find out a reasonable proxy (with different lenses) by comparing, say, the D600 to the K3.
It doesn't. I don't buy that there is much difference in detail. I saw all of those threads when the K5 II and K5 IIs came out and honestly, the difference was you could sharpen the K5 IIs files less before artifacts set in than you could sharpen the K5 II files. I own a K5 II and a K3. There is more detail in the K3, but you need to be more careful sharpening its files or, you will get nasty jaggies.

Anyway, I don't really buy that lack of AA filter changes the DXO Mark score. It didn't between the K5 II and K5 IIs.
09-24-2014, 06:48 PM   #88
Veteran Member




Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,893
It doesn't change the DxO mark score for the camera. It absolutely changes the score for the lens.
09-24-2014, 10:23 PM   #89
Pentaxian
philbaum's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA
Posts: 3,659
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Exactly.... once you decide to do something, you can find some way of finding out to your satisfaction. But for me, the images in the Pentax glass on Sony FF thread are the ones of interest. They not only tell me what's possible, they show me what I'm likely to get. The forum has an incredible number of users and they use an incredible number of systems. You can find reliable resources for just about any situation. All you need to do is figure out where you fit in.

I definitely fit into the more low res.. sunset and landscape category. I actually find many of my low res prints kind of like paintings, dreamy, not meant to be taken literally, but a representation of the essence. Many in these kinds of debates are striving for the best possible technical accuracy, or most expensive technical system they can afford. It's a philosophical difference that is rarely bridged.

So when someone says, well this or that company has better lenses, that is only of interest to a few of us. Most of us are looking for a "representation" of reality, not the literal truth. Two different interpretations that require different gear and a different mindset. Some of my pictures today resemble paint splotches... I like that.



For me, rendition is more important than resolution, and I always shoot at 100-400 ISO so high ISO performance is not so important. Although I would like something a bit better for wildlife. Unfortunately the A7r probably isn't it, although, who knows?
Totally agree. I remember one post that stated "sharpness" was the goal of photography. Whether its a painting or photograph, to me the only thing that matters is the "story". For me, no story=no sale. The camera is nothing more than an elaborate brush.
09-25-2014, 09:41 AM   #90
osv
Pentaxian




Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: So Cal
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,080
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I wish I could see a comparison on the A7 -- 24 megapixel full frame -- versus the K3 24 megapixel APS-C. I would imagine that the full frame would do better, but I wonder how much better? I checked the DXO Mark site and they don't have any lens tests for the A7. Photozone measured vignetting (uncorrected) at a fiercesome 2.6 EVs and even corrected at 1.4 EVs. That's pretty bad. It is probably fixable in post with lower isos, but not good.
vignetting(and field curvature) is the achilles heel of ff... the fe35 differences on a7r vs. nex7 crop sensor are -1.8 vs. -0.8, per that dxomark link i posted... and that's gotta be after in-camera correction on the a7r :-0

i recently started measuring light falloff with imatest, on the a7r... with legacy primes, going from 24mm to 28mm appears to gain ~2 f-stops in the very furthest corners(wide open, worst case), which is a lot.

can't compare that to photozone results, because my exposures aren't calibrated against theirs, only against each other, but it's enough to see that there is a significant difference wrt focal length.

yes, legacy lens designs weren't made for short mirrorless registration distances, but there are the rare few lenses that cope pretty well with it, which indicates poor lens design is the biggest factor.

i've shot over a dozen lenses, all of the same scene, at the same aperture... the differences in lens designs are rather surprising.

---------- Post added 09-25-2014 at 10:29 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Materials make a big difference in weight. The DA 35 and DA 55 have heavier construction. If you choose plastic lenses like the DA 35 f2.4 (125 g) or the FA 50 f1.4 (221 g) the lenses are lighter.
true, but lighter weight usually means worse performance... so i did the comparison based on the best possible glass that i could find.

Pentax smc DA 35mm F2.4 AL: 11P-mpix
Pentax HD DA 35mm F2.8 Macro Limited: 13P-mpix

using the dxomark system, most 24mp sensor cameras capture less than 50% of the sensor resolution, while 36mp sensors are recording over 50% of the sensor resolution... i'm not sure why 36mp is so much more efficient.

dxomark on their P-mpix system:
http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Looking-for-new-photo-gear-DxOMark-s-Perceptu...l-can-help-you

Last edited by osv; 09-25-2014 at 10:34 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
24x36mm, aps-c, arrows, body, camera, comparisons, contest, crop, d700, edge, equivalence, ff, full-frame, fun, images, ir, iso, k5, pentax, people, photobucket, post, results, sensor, source, standards, times
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sony cameras ... which is which for what? jpzk Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 8 03-17-2014 05:46 AM
Which photo is which lens at 135mm? striker_ Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 9 10-30-2013 05:07 AM
Which is which macro? old vs new rp_dxn Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 6 09-27-2013 05:48 AM
Which is which? DA16-50 vs f/2.8 Primes carrrlangas Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 7 06-22-2013 10:52 AM
OK, Which is Sharper ? wll Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 10 09-06-2009 06:27 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:15 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top