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08-22-2014, 06:24 AM   #1
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Pentax has the best Full Frame Camera its a 645Z

Ok the titles a little misleading as the 645Z is a Medium Format Camera and Full Frame refers to 35 mm Film equivalent, However the argument for 35 mm Film equivalency is often stated as having greater depth of field, wider angle of view, higher ISO sensitivity but the way technology has increased it could be argued that ISO is no longer a factor. This is true of the 645Z and as the sensor is larger still (35mm = 0.62 of the 645Z) Pentax actually make a superior camera to the oppositions 35 mm equivalents (barring all the functional items in memory which don't really contribute to picture quality).


Consider this.


A 55 mm Lens on35 mm equivalent camera is = to 35 mm Lens on a Pentax K3(Pentax K3 has a crop value if 1.4) With this you can see a 12 mm lens on a 35mm equivalent as apposed to a 12 mm lens on a Pentax K3 is going to have a wider angle of view (great for landscapes), 12 mm on 35 mm equivalent = 16.8 on a Pentax K3 At these wide angles you run into Lens manufacturing issues in trying to get less than 12 mm and you would need a 8.5 mm lens for a Pentax K3 to be equivalent. But what about the other end the telephoto end, its a greater advantage to have a Pentax K3 i.e. A 300 mm lens for the Pentax K3 = 420mm for a 35 mm equivalent. 420 mm Lens's are much bigger and weightier than 300 mm lenses.


So it depends on what you want to do with your photography, if you take a lot of Landscapes and predominantly take landscapes buy a 35mm equivalent or better still buy a PENTAX 645Z with a 22 mm lens its better, and still has a wide angle view of a the 22mm lens for the Pentax 645Z is = to 15 mm 35 mm equivalent. If your into sports or birds stick with your existing Pentax DSLR or get a PENTAX K3. Anything in between and your existing Pentax will still take great photo's.


I like quite a few people would not be able to tell the difference between a picture taken with a 35 mm equivalent Camera or a Pentax K3 (or similar). I recently had a Pano from an iPhone printed on a A1 sheet, the quality is excellent and if you seen the picture most would say how may shots did I stich together from my Pentax.


I can only guess BUT is this why Pentax wont make a Full Frame Camera (shudders at using that term) Pentax have a better camera at a physical size not much larger than top 35 mm equivalent in the 645Z Medium Format Camera.


08-22-2014, 06:33 AM   #2
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35x24 is still the most versatile. People make ƒ1.4 lenses for 35mm, not so much for 645s.. the widest you can get on a Pentax 645 currently is ƒ2.8. For the narrow DoF guys 35mm is still the most flexible. But for us landscape guys, 35 mm has nothing to offer over a 645. There's so many guys who define their whole photographic experience by what they can achieve in narrow DoF images I'm sure you'll get lot's of argument.

For me, I'm still waiting for a second hand 645D for $3500, although with the new ones going for $5k even that seems exorbitant, and the low light performance of the 645z has me wondering if I even want a D. Life is so complicated. I still think for what I shoot, a K-3 and a 645D would make me very happy.

But a 645z would make me even happier. But the D still has more detail than any 35mm camera, even if it's a little lacking in dynamic range and low light performance. It's all in the detail.
08-22-2014, 06:55 AM   #3
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The 645Z no doubt is a great camera...unfortunately, its and its lenses prices makes it out of reach for 99% of the population.

Plus, I don't know what you mean by this:
"higher ISO sensitivity but the way technology has increased it could be argued that ISO is no longer a factor. "
If ISO sensitivity was no longer a factor, people wouldnt spend the money to buy a lens that was one stop faster, or a sensor that had more light gathering capability, or just crank up the ISO to its highest setting to get the fastest shutter speed to minimize camera shake.

08-22-2014, 07:34 AM   #4
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QuoteOriginally posted by chrissmithy Quote
So it depends on what you want to do with your photography, if you take a lot of Landscapes and predominantly take landscapes buy a 35mm equivalent or better still buy a PENTAX 645Z with a 22 mm lens its better, and still has a wide angle view of a the 22mm lens for the Pentax 645Z is = to 15 mm 35 mm equivalent. If your into sports or birds stick with your existing Pentax DSLR or get a PENTAX K3. Anything in between and your existing Pentax will still take great photo's.
The elephant in the room is price. A 645Z + 25 f/4 kit is $13,500 currently. Not really serving a volume market, and not something your typical aps-c shooter would even consider upgrading to - especially when their current K-mount lenses would be worthless on it.

A Pentax FF body would debut in the range of (probably) $1800 - $3500.

Pentax needs an affordable FF body if it wants K-mount to survive/thrive long term. MILC will get better & better and eat into the low-mid (and high) DSLR tiers, entry-FF will eat into the high-end aps-c == Pentax has a shrinking volume segment and their bread n' butter product (K-mount) is drained of lifeblood.

.

08-22-2014, 07:41 AM   #5
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
The elephant in the room is price. A 645Z + 25 f/4 kit is $13,500 currently. Not really serving a volume market, and not something your typical aps-c shooter would even consider upgrading to - especially when their current K-mount lenses would be worthless on it.

A Pentax FF body would debut in the range of (probably) $1800 - $3500.

Pentax needs an affordable FF body if it wants K-mount to survive/thrive long term. MILC will get better & better and eat into the low-mid (and high) DSLR tiers, entry-FF will eat into the high-end aps-c == Pentax has a shrinking volume segment and their bread n' butter product (K-mount) is drained of lifeblood.

.
Not everyone needs the 25 f4 lens. If you can get by with the FA 35mm, then the price would be more like 10,000. Still really steep, but certainly the the newer DA 645 lenses are a lot more expensive than older lenses (which are still quite good).

But I definitely agree that for versatility, the full frame camera will be a better option due to the lenses available (and those that would be released after its release).
08-22-2014, 08:14 AM   #6
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Well, according to Ricoh's last financial comments (T2/2014) , 645Z is the new "full scale" SLR success of Pentax.
I have personnally lost any hope in a future 35mm / 24x36mm DSLR under Ricoh's ownership.
As well as for "full framed" digital medium format, due to the release of a second crop sensored lens (28-45mm) for 645.
Pentax if it survives, will for sure stay a very small player in the photography market for the next decade...

Last edited by Zygonyx; 08-22-2014 at 10:20 AM.
08-22-2014, 08:32 AM   #7
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$10,000 for one camera, one single focal length lens, no accessories.
My APS-C camera, with flash, Raynox, and 4 quality lenses is about 30% the price and is MUCH more versatile.
If i had a FF camera, it would be about 40% of the price.

That is why the people saying that the 645Z is a substitute for FF is really missing the point IMHO.
08-22-2014, 08:33 AM   #8
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I think FF will come. But it made sense for them to tackle 645Z first in a market where they don't have a lot of competition and get the cash flow going before entertaining the enthusiasts with FF. Pros are already stuck with Cannikon and won't switch format just because... So there isn't a HUGE amount of money to be made in FF for Pentax.

08-22-2014, 09:13 AM   #9
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Hallo all. I'm new on the Forum and I found this thread intresting.
Let's be correct and speak of.....money! I dont't own a 645d or z (I'd like!!!) but honestly the price is on the professional side. For common "prosumer" people here in Europe spending so much money is simply a choice between a new citycar and our passion... so the answer is quite obvious. I've been a Canon SLR user for two decades but going digital I found Canon's market policy really strange with good FF products ( Eos 5d) quite overpriced and other FF products (Eos 6d)much more approachable but deprived of some of the mechanical features that in film era SLR were quite a standard . Price comparison between European market and other markets shows a lot of the market politics of productors, making European market much more expensive ( right now a 645 D is priced 8000 euros at least, online - with the change of 1,3 betw. EU-US dollars it means about 9000 US dollars - that means the double the cost of a D800 or a Eos5dmk III - in euro) . What I waint to say is that with my budget I buy a K5 (that's quite better than Canon 7d- obviously not FF) preferring going digital with Pentax due to the fact that in my opinion Pentax offers in APS-C camera body all the features and manual controls that are really useful and it's the best compromise betweeen quality and price (You know...in the film era things were different..you have to use good lenses and well know the films and choose the film you preferred for a single work - no matter the camera body). So said I have to tall that the temptation of having a digital FF camera is huge but only if the camera is complete and, not least SOLID.
In my opinion APSC system is useful and complete but the lack of a FF camera in the Pentax' lineup is unreasonable because in the gap between the price of 645 (that is a specific product- in my opinion not comparable with APSC or 35 mm ) and the K3 there's the space for a FF camera that would be a reasonable choice for many people convinced by Pentax quality and wanting the versatility of the old 35 mm system without the problem of the crop factor at lower focal lenghts (with the Fa43 that's really a 43 , and old 15 that are 15 mm, and so on...). If you are used to architecture photo. try to find a T/S lens usable with the crop factor ...it just begin a standard and here in Italy you will find many small places without the possibility of moving backwards to find the right view!!! With APS -C sometimes you loose the possibility - or, better said, the immediate comfortable simplicity - to take some shots at lower focal lenghts (no usable T/s , no rectilinear primes lower than 15 that act as a 24-26 ....). In my non technical opinion there are big differences betw. old 35mm and APS-C and old 35 is really better. Remember that the try to replace the 35 mm films with APS format was a flop in the '90s.
Not the least many people own collecition of old good MF primes that would be perfectly usable (I know... not the same results in digital.. but I have some of them and they work surely better than some new zoom lenses - I don't like AF!!) . Nikon is selling many of FF cameras and not only to professionists because the price target is a good compromise and products are good. The market is going on FF side with approachable prices and Pentax - my convinced choice - is loosing time in developing new consumer-oriented products with a non competitive price. I know many people using Nikon D800 for landscapes and their experience is really good (and Nikon too keeps in many cameras the compatibility with old manual focus lenses).
So, I WISH Pentax will come out soon with a new FF camera that would be my second digital camera body .... in the other case I will upgrade with a K3 !!!! Best Regards.
08-22-2014, 09:20 AM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by chrissmithy Quote
Pentax K3 has a crop value if 1.4
you mean 1.5, right?
08-22-2014, 09:37 AM   #11
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I hate to say it... but this pretty much hits the nail on the head of what I've been thinking for the past few years.

Ricoh/Pentax 'could' make a full frame camera, but then they'd have to ramp back up on making full frame lenses (most are APS-C, with exception of some primes). I.e. How many full frame primes and zooms are there in the CURRENT market ?

Pentax has been selling medium format for a long time, and didn't discontinue its lenses (well availability outside of Japan maybe).
Many have noted that the 645z and say Nikon D800 are not 'all that different' from a MP perspective.
On the downside... 645Z is a beast - even compared to D800, and is more expensive, slower shooting and in autofocus.
Well... medium format has never been set for sports photography, and maybe Pentax knows what it wants to sell.

APS-C is the high(er) volume norm, compared to FF. Pentax wants its users to hit medium format and not full frame, in my opinion.
08-22-2014, 09:39 AM   #12
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I also think a regular FF will come but Ricoh knows that the market is small and crowded with Sony, Nikon, and Canon. Let those three duke it out and see who's standing. Partner up with the survivor. I say partner because I think eventually Sony will come out on top. Sony will have the mirrorless market and Ricoh will offer a mirror'ed version. Nikon will offer large "pro" bodies and Ricoh will have smaller WR "field" bodies. Sony will continue with fair weather tourist bodies. Canon will eventually fall far enough behind that they won't matter.

I'm still guessing that Ricoh will develop a new mount for FF and I would be pleasantly shocked if they don't.

The 645Z MF is great but way too expensive and exclusive. It's a great product for those who can afford it and find it practical though. I say they should keep marching on with it. There's nothing wrong with being #1 with MF and #3 with APS.
08-22-2014, 10:54 AM   #13
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My opinion is that Pentax has the know how to make outstanding FF lenses and do them soon. Also has millions of old but good and cheap lenses worldwide from first K mount to be mounted on new DSLR. In this Forum we discuss over old lenses and how them performs in digital...ask someone if Canon FD is compatible to eos bodies or if a Nikon 3000,3200,3300,5000,5100,5200,5300 (most sell bodies) is compatible to old same F mount ....They DON'T!!!! Nikon and Canon newcomers must buy new expensive lenses or take cheap zooms loosing the IQ that better lenses offer. I use often a M42 35 Super Takumar made before I was born and after 45 years I't ROCK SOLID , buy for 30 euros and IT WORKS great!!!
The reason not to do FF cameras and lenses is marketing choices that pulls Pentax in a consumer market where many others do more with a less price ; Pentax wants to sell more products exchanging its best market - the prosumer market - i.e. WE- for a wish to sell more to non technically oriented users. So , if Pentax wants a bigger- small or large- piece of market has to differentiate the offer mantaining APS C system and integrating with FF and new lenses (exactly what others do). Remember that many of us, right now, are just buyng other' productors lenses that offers the FF format compatbility (in my opinion that's a piece of market lost). APS C system quality would be advertisement for new users to buy Pentax instead of Canon and Nikon. Winning in defence is never a good idea in the market. In Europe the K3 is sell with cheap DA L zoom lenses as kit at a price that's higher than competitive Nikon products. How to convince people of the quality of the product if you sell a better camera with worse lenses that does not enhance its quality?
I Hope that Pentax will revisit its own market strategy and gives us a FF and new, ultimate FF lenses !! regards. Matteo
08-22-2014, 11:01 AM   #14
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The question isnt 645z vs a d800 but 645d vs a d800. D800+16-35 would be close in focal length and equivalent aperture o a 645d+28- 45mm

Last edited by y0chang; 08-22-2014 at 11:07 AM.
08-22-2014, 11:09 AM   #15
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
35x24 is still the most versatile. People make ƒ1.4 lenses for 35mm, not so much for 645s.. the widest you can get on a Pentax 645 currently is ƒ2.8. For the narrow DoF guys 35mm is still the most flexible. But for us landscape guys, 35 mm has nothing to offer over a 645. There's so many guys who define their whole photographic experience by what they can achieve in narrow DoF images I'm sure you'll get lot's of argument.

For me, I'm still waiting for a second hand 645D for $3500, although with the new ones going for $5k even that seems exorbitant, and the low light performance of the 645z has me wondering if I even want a D. Life is so complicated. I still think for what I shoot, a K-3 and a 645D would make me very happy.

But a 645z would make me even happier. But the D still has more detail than any 35mm camera, even if it's a little lacking in dynamic range and low light performance. It's all in the detail.

Agree completely.

I'll expound upon the low light capability. If you can tolerate or desire lower DOF, 36x24, with available lenses* have better low light capability than lenses available for MF.

All else the same, and it rarely is, the 645Z should have a resolution benefit that may or may not matter to each photographer.


*FF lenses are available in F/1.4,1.2,1.1,0.95... all easily adaptable to Sony FE mount. If you're considering the 645Z, these lenses will still be cheaper.

---------- Post added 08-22-14 at 11:11 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by formercanuck Quote
I hate to say it... but this pretty much hits the nail on the head of what I've been thinking for the past few years.

Ricoh/Pentax 'could' make a full frame camera, but then they'd have to ramp back up on making full frame lenses (most are APS-C, with exception of some primes). I.e. How many full frame primes and zooms are there in the CURRENT market ?
One year ago, there were 39. Haven't updated it since.

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/183420-curr...me-lenses.html
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