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10-02-2014, 01:31 PM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
What does a "20 percent" difference mean in real life ability to print/view an image?
Uh... it can take up a 20%-larger portion of your vision with the same detail?

10-02-2014, 01:42 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Uh... it can take up a 20%-larger portion of your vision with the same detail?
Does that mean if you can print A3 size with a K3, that you can print A2 with same detail on a D600?
10-02-2014, 02:25 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Does that mean if you can print A3 size with a K3, that you can print A2 with same detail on a D600?
Do I need to look up paper sizes? Surely you can do this yourself.
10-02-2014, 02:42 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Do I need to look up paper sizes? Surely you can do this yourself.
I think the answer is that there is no real world difference in printing sizes between the two formats. At high ISO there will be some, but for landscapes at low ISO, you won't see it.

10-02-2014, 02:43 PM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Does that mean if you can print A3 size with a K3, that you can print A2 with same detail on a D600?
No


I print to A3+, which is 19x13 because that's what my Canon Pixma Pro 9500 prints to. And a K-5 is fine for that. We've sold many prints taken with 10 and 12 MP cameras at that size.

A2 is double A-3. 20% won't get you anywhere close to A2.

But, A2 being 24x17 roughly, your K-3 should do a nice job on A2 if you upscale to 300 DPI and print on any Canon pro quality printer.

It would be exactly the same procedure for a D610 image, and it almost certainly wouldn't look any better from a normal viewing distance.

Based on The IR swatches at 100 ISO, the K-3 is the better camera...


So you have to ask, if you are happy with the K-3 printed at A2, are you going to have to drop to A3 on the D610 to have the same apparent value. This is by no means a comprehensive test. But it definitely proves, the K-3 can produce a better image than the D610. How often that would happen is open to debate and further research. But that it can happen is pretty much indisputable.

Last edited by normhead; 10-02-2014 at 03:53 PM.
10-02-2014, 05:57 PM   #111
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Those IR swatches sure do get a good workout, don't they.

Print output performance has a million variables though - ink, paper, printer, DPI, sharpening applied, gamut used etc etc. Those variables can easily eat up any 20% resolution difference.
10-02-2014, 06:02 PM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
No


I print to A3+, which is 19x13 because that's what my Canon Pixma Pro 9500 prints to. And a K-5 is fine for that. We've sold many prints taken with 10 and 12 MP cameras at that size.

A2 is double A-3. 20% won't get you anywhere close to A2.

But, A2 being 24x17 roughly, your K-3 should do a nice job on A2 if you upscale to 300 DPI and print on any Canon pro quality printer.

It would be exactly the same procedure for a D610 image, and it almost certainly wouldn't look any better from a normal viewing distance.

Based on The IR swatches at 100 ISO, the K-3 is the better camera...


So you have to ask, if you are happy with the K-3 printed at A2, are you going to have to drop to A3 on the D610 to have the same apparent value. This is by no means a comprehensive test. But it definitely proves, the K-3 can produce a better image than the D610. How often that would happen is open to debate and further research. But that it can happen is pretty much indisputable.


Yay! More imaging resource! Did they focus correctly? What aperture were they testing? Why is the jpg of the D600 that you're comparing so much more downsized than the jpg of the K-3?

Why do so many threads on PENTAXforums involve bashing the D600? Perhaps a psychiatrist is needed.

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 10-02-2014 at 06:14 PM.
10-02-2014, 06:36 PM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Yay! More imaging resource! Did they focus correctly? What aperture were they testing? Why is the jpg of the D600 that you're comparing so much more downsized than the jpg of the K-3?

Why do so many threads on PENTAXforums involve bashing the D600? Perhaps a psychiatrist is needed.
Because people keep claiming it's better than a K-3? Who needs the psychiatrist, those who keep saying any FF is better than any APS-c or those who continuously reject visual proof to the contrary? Anyone can argue theory, but disputing actual visual images from a lab test, that takes some kind of blinkers. Buy the way I checked the K-3 and D610 images for 200 ISO and the D610 has some bright spots but still isn't as good overall.

So you're saying the nothing you've come up with is better than actual images?.. as in "don't believe your eyes, believe what I say." You gotta do better than that.
It must really annoy you, those real world examples that don't go your way. If your side doesn't come out on top, it must be missed focus? Those guys at IR are just out to disprove the truth. Bad men, bad I say.

Ya right.


Last edited by normhead; 10-02-2014 at 06:54 PM.
10-02-2014, 06:44 PM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So you're saying the nothing you've come up with is better than actual images?.. as in "don't believe your eyes, believe what I say." You gotta do better than that.



Not focused the same - invalid test.
Not same depth of field - invalid test.
Depth of field not large enough for the scene - invalid test.
Shutter speed not high enough - invalid test.
Imaging resource - invalid test.
JPG images - invalid analysis.
Arguing with a guy who insults toddlers on the internet - invalid me.

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 10-02-2014 at 06:49 PM.
10-02-2014, 06:51 PM   #115
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10-02-2014, 07:01 PM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote


Not focused the same - invalid test.
Not same depth of field - invalid test.
Depth of field not large enough for the scene - invalid test.
Shutter speed not high enough - invalid test.
Imaging resource - invalid test.
JPG images - invalid analysis.
Arguing with a guy who insults toddlers on the internet - invalid me.
There are technical reasons for all of your arguments.

Not focused the same.. when you have two cameras that display different DoF at the same aperture, you have to do your best, that's all you can do, it doesn't make the test invalid.
Of course it's not the same depth of field. Ones APS-c one FF, at the same aperture, they don't have the same DoF.
Sometimes with FF shooting at the same time, the DoF isn't going to cover, what are you going to do?
Shutter speed not high enough? Really, I have nice crisp shots from 5 second exposures, what are you talking about?

The rest is just nonsense.

My point wasn't that everything was perfect in the tests, my point was that even in lab tests, the differences between 24 MP APS_c and 24 MP FF were so small, either one could conceivably come out on top in terms of IQ. I'm not sure why that is such a difficult concept.
10-02-2014, 07:04 PM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The rest is just nonsense.
No, I really should've focused more on the last one.
10-02-2014, 07:16 PM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Yay! More imaging resource! Did they focus correctly? What aperture were they testing? Why is the jpg of the D600 that you're comparing so much more downsized than the jpg of the K-3?

Why do so many threads on PENTAXforums involve bashing the D600? Perhaps a psychiatrist is needed.
I am not bashing the D600. The question is just whether 24 megapixel APS-C gives similar resolution to 24 megapixel full frame. You own the D600 and are partial to that camera, but looking at DP Review studio comparison, I can't tell the difference between the two at iso 800 and below and I've clicked all over it.

Obviously there are differences at high isos. I just don't buy that there are as great differences as full frame proponents would like to claim.

It is really fine though. You have nice gear and it works well for you, I like my gear too. It's all good, right?
10-02-2014, 07:27 PM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I am not bashing the D600. The question is just whether 24 megapixel APS-C gives similar resolution to 24 megapixel full frame. You own the D600 and are partial to that camera, but looking at DP Review studio comparison, I can't tell the difference between the two at iso 800 and below and I've clicked all over it.

Obviously there are differences at high isos. I just don't buy that there are as great differences as full frame proponents would like to claim.

It is really fine though. You have nice gear and it works well for you, I like my gear too. It's all good, right?
Exactly...
10-02-2014, 07:32 PM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I am not bashing the D600. The question is just whether 24 megapixel APS-C gives similar resolution to 24 megapixel full frame.
Uh... yes? 20% is hard to see. Keep in mind that in most of this thread people were conflating no-AA with APS-C.

I wasn't accusing you of bashing the D600, FWIW.

Out of curiousity, what cameras are you comparing? Maybe I'm overlooking it but I don't see a Pentax K-3 as a comparison in the dpreview studio shot.

Last edited by ElJamoquio; 10-02-2014 at 07:50 PM.
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