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09-19-2014, 01:08 PM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I guess it shows how desperate both Pentaxians and web site news mongers are for anything that even hints of a rumor.
You would think that Pentax would realise by now, after all these years, that FF rumours generate an enormous amount of buzz and chatter online for a reason - people are interested in the product, there are customers for Pentax FF.

If there was no buzz or chatter about rumours of Pentax FF, then it would be a good sign that no one cared, and that a Pentax FF product would probably have trouble finding buyers. But the opposite seems true.

09-19-2014, 01:37 PM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
You would think that Pentax would realise by now, after all these years, that FF rumours generate an enormous amount of buzz and chatter online
That would be true if the same people were in charge all the time, but with each management change new people and new priorities. And let's be honest, FF rumors raise a lot of attention in our little pond, but out in the big wide world, maybe not so much. A wildly vocal 1% is still just a wildly vocal 1%. What is the "I want FF poll" up to now, 160 will buy? Not exactly the kind of demand that would get me to dump mega-dollars into R&D, production, packaging, and marketing for a product line.

I suspect they are far more aware than we are of precisely how much interest and demand there is for a FF body, and that it was given the priority it deserved on the list of things to do. And just because there is demand does not mean the demand will be high enough to actually make the product profitable.

But I do think if they could have brought out a FF they would have. If I remember right the k-3 was pulled and reworked because Ricoh was not happy with it. I think that was an excellent decision because the k-3 they did release was about as good as it gets. So they might have been able to release a FF last year but something stopped them, and I don't buy the 'market demand' theory.

I think Ricoh likes to do things right and when a FF is released it will be right. In order to deliver that they would need:
  1. A processor capable of keeping up
  2. A sensor they were happy with
  3. A data bus that could handle the megapixels and FPS speed they wanted
  4. Four FF zoom lenses. 14-28, 24-70, 70-210, 150-450 all in HD and optimized for FF digital
  5. A set of primes in both regular and limited varieties also in HD and optimized for FF digital
  6. A good tethering solution
  7. A service network capable of supporting high end customers
The lenses do not all need to be available at launch, but they all need to be in the pipeline so then can follow on in good order. There is no reason, except the vocal 1%, to release a FF at any particular time. There are strong reasons to make sure when it does release that it is a solid contender with a complete eco-system to go with it. They have NO customer base in FF at this time, so no reason to release anything to keep them happy. They will get one chance at this so I think when the FF does come out it will not be a camera and a couple lenses, it will be a complete system. I think we are at least a year away yet, maybe two.
09-19-2014, 01:40 PM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
A processor capable of keeping up
A sensor they were happy with
A data bus that could handle the megapixels and FPS speed they wanted
Four FF zoom lenses. 14-28, 24-70, 70-210, 150-450 all in HD and optimized for FF digital
A set of primes in both regular and limited varieties also in HD and optimized for FF digital
A good tethering solution
A service network capable of supporting high end customers
And a fix on SR.
09-19-2014, 01:48 PM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
That would be true if the same people were in charge all the time, but with each management change new people and new priorities. And let's be honest, FF rumors raise a lot of attention in our little pond, but out in the big wide world, maybe not so much. A wildly vocal 1% is still just a wildly vocal 1%. What is the "I want FF poll" up to now, 160 will buy? Not exactly the kind of demand that would get me to dump mega-dollars into R&D, production, packaging, and marketing for a product line.

I suspect they are far more aware than we are of precisely how much interest and demand there is for a FF body, and that it was given the priority it deserved on the list of things to do. And just because there is demand does not mean the demand will be high enough to actually make the product profitable.

But I do think if they could have brought out a FF they would have. If I remember right the k-3 was pulled and reworked because Ricoh was not happy with it. I think that was an excellent decision because the k-3 they did release was about as good as it gets. So they might have been able to release a FF last year but something stopped them, and I don't buy the 'market demand' theory.

I think Ricoh likes to do things right and when a FF is released it will be right. In order to deliver that they would need:
  1. A processor capable of keeping up
  2. A sensor they were happy with
  3. A data bus that could handle the megapixels and FPS speed they wanted
  4. Four FF zoom lenses. 14-28, 24-70, 70-210, 150-450 all in HD and optimized for FF digital
  5. A set of primes in both regular and limited varieties also in HD and optimized for FF digital
  6. A good tethering solution
  7. A service network capable of supporting high end customers
The lenses do not all need to be available at launch, but they all need to be in the pipeline so then can follow on in good order. There is no reason, except the vocal 1%, to release a FF at any particular time. There are strong reasons to make sure when it does release that it is a solid contender with a complete eco-system to go with it. They have NO customer base in FF at this time, so no reason to release anything to keep them happy. They will get one chance at this so I think when the FF does come out it will not be a camera and a couple lenses, it will be a complete system. I think we are at least a year away yet, maybe two.
I would say that if it wasn't for the 645z taking all of Ricoh's attention, we would probably see a full frame already. There isn't anywhere really to go up from the K3 in the APS-C world. Maybe a little better video, maybe incremental improvement in auto focus -- maybe Sony will come out with a 40 megapixel APS-C sensor -- nothing though that will sell more camera bodies to folks who already own a K3, or even a K5 II. In addition, their APS-C lens line up is pretty stagnant -- little going on over the last several years. If they want to sell more lenses, they need new lenses and something that won't over lap with what they have already.

So, I think full frame is coming, but only when they think they have a camera that will hit a niche in the market that they think will work.

09-19-2014, 02:13 PM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There isn't anywhere really to go up from the K3 in the APS-C world. Maybe a little better video, maybe incremental improvement in auto focus -- maybe Sony will come out with a 40 megapixel APS-C sensor -- nothing though that will sell more camera bodies to folks who already own a K3, or even a K5 II.
Hmm, not sure. People who want better video will get a better video camera, like the NX1 and more coming, the the people who want a better still camera will go ff. I'm not sure the APSC market you're talking about is going to still be there in a year from now. There's all this discussion on the forums about APS-C or FF, and I don't think that's the question people ask when they're buying a new camera. They ask: what's the best bang for my buck? In stills, the K3 is no longer the camera. For video, the K3 is not the camera. And certainly if you're a person looking for stability in the brand, Pentax is not the place.
09-19-2014, 03:20 PM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
And a fix on SR.
Fix? They don't have a FF so how can they fix it? They definitely need SR though, and that might be the issue, if they have not been able to get IBIS to work on a 24 x 36 sensor.

QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
They ask: what's the best bang for my buck? In stills, the K3 is no longer the camera. For video, the K3 is not the camera. And certainly if you're a person looking for stability in the brand, Pentax is not the place.
Well I will agree with the video. The other two? No. K-3 @ about $1,000 body is the best still camera out there. Stability? Ricoh defines stability, sort of like an iceberg maybe but definitely stable.
09-19-2014, 06:15 PM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
They definitely need SR though
The SR on the K3 and K1 is worse than nothing in video.

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Stability? Ricoh defines stability, sort of like an iceberg maybe but definitely stable.
Yes, the camera is stable in stills. But I don't trust the brand. Promises promises. I wouldn't bet that there will be new K mount cameras in 3 years, which is not exactly stable. And as far as better offerings at that price point, haha, Sony, Fuji, Nikon, Samsung, gads man. That's a lot of cameras at 1000 bucks that have phenomenal offerings.

Ha, until recently I found all this upsetting, but now I realize that all the Pentaxian denial and justification and rationalizing is really quite extraordinary. The Pentax community is long suffering and knowledgeable. It's like watching the end of Rome in a microcosm.
09-19-2014, 07:08 PM - 1 Like   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
The SR on the K3 and K1 is worse than nothing in video.



Yes, the camera is stable in stills. But I don't trust the brand. Promises promises. I wouldn't bet that there will be new K mount cameras in 3 years, which is not exactly stable. And as far as better offerings at that price point, haha, Sony, Fuji, Nikon, Samsung, gads man. That's a lot of cameras at 1000 bucks that have phenomenal offerings.

Ha, until recently I found all this upsetting, but now I realize that all the Pentaxian denial and justification and rationalizing is really quite extraordinary. The Pentax community is long suffering and knowledgeable. It's like watching the end of Rome in a microcosm.
I don't think you have any reason for pessimism. Canon and Sony have both changed mounts more times than Pentax has. How do we know that Fuji is actually making money and if the APS-C market does dry up, where will they be, considering their mount isn't full frame compatible?

The K mount has been around a long time. The time may come when Pentax goes mirrorless, but they are conservative enough that I don't think it is happening any time soon. I do think they will continue to release k mount SLRs for the next five years minimum and maybe after that.

09-19-2014, 07:17 PM - 1 Like   #189
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QuoteQuote:
The time may come when Pentax goes mirrorless, but they are conservative enough that I don't think it is happening any time soon.
Does the guy who designed the K-01 still work there?
09-19-2014, 07:36 PM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The K mount has been around a long time. The time may come when Pentax goes mirrorless, but they are conservative enough that I don't think it is happening any time soon. I do think they will continue to release k mount SLRs for the next five years minimum and maybe after that.
I'll keep using the K mount lenses. But it's funny you say five years. I went back and forth. Three years or five years? Maybe you're right. Maybe five years is right. Five more years of K mount as is. Eh, doesn't sound right. I'll stick with three years.

Yeah, hmm, I'm not sure I see it as pessimism (but I do see that terminology as self-justifying rationalization ). What I expressed is a lack of confidence. As is, Pentax is not on top of the the APSC market, and certainly not on top of an FF market. I worry that the dependence on Fuji for processors and Sony for sensors is too much outsourcing and delay, and I worry that the K mount, as much as I love it, is holding the brand behind. Not a huge fan of the FE / A mount scenario, but Sony is producing great cameras—and Sony is always at the top of their categories.

Oh, and I said the K mount may not be around in three years. Medium Format the future? Maybe that is where the brand identity should be now. Maybe it's headed somewhere else, I don't know.
09-19-2014, 07:45 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
The SR on the K3 and K1 is worse than nothing in video.
Oh, now I understand. I don't do any video so means nothing to me. I do remember some complaints about it though. If you are into video I suspect Pentax is not a good fit for you. Even when asked this week at Photokina they stated rather bluntly that video was not a priority for Pentax.
QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
Yes, the camera is stable in stills. But I don't trust the brand. Promises promises.
I thought we were discussing the brand not stability in stills.... But anyway, the brand itself is solid now. Not sure how much more stable you can get than Ricoh. Like I said they are an iceberg, slow and steady, and boring. And just FYI, but Ricoh has delivered on all promises made, including some made before they bought Pentax. Promises, promises? Are you saying they should deliver on internet rumors? I think not. Just because rumors get bounced back and forth until they have no semblance to reality does not make them promises.
QuoteQuote:
I wouldn't bet that there will be new K mount cameras in 3 years, which is not exactly stable..
Do you have some evidence to back that up or are you just down on Pentax today? In case you missed it they just announced a new 16-85 lens and previewed two lens prototypes. I find it difficult to believe they would be introducing new lenses for a mount they are going to abandon.
QuoteQuote:
And as far as better offerings at that price point, haha, Sony, Fuji, Nikon, Samsung, gads man. That's a lot of cameras at 1000 bucks that have phenomenal offerings
I'm sure there are a lot of camera bodies out there that give great images, in fact it would be very hard to buy a BAD camera right now. So I don't get your point. The k-3 is the best still camera on the market at that price point. If you want to argue about that be my guest, you won't change my mind, and I suspect I won't change yours.
09-19-2014, 08:08 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
The k-3 is the best still camera on the market at that price point. If you want to argue about that be my guest, you won't change my mind, and I suspect I won't change yours.
When the K3 came out, there was no argument. Now, there are maybe a half dozen cameras vying for the 1 grand slot.

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I thought we were discussing the brand not stability in stills....
I was agreeing with you. The still photography in the K3 is incredibly reliable. As I said before, I don't feel certain about the brand. For example: Pentax France is releasing information? All this talk about something new, etc. I'm all for it, but I wish they'd be more straightforward about, ha, for example, the revision to the k mount.
09-19-2014, 08:41 PM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
As I said before, I don't feel certain about the brand.
Really? In 2010 I might have agreed with you. It could be that today Ricoh Imaging is the only camera brand operating at a profit. Maybe Leica - after their Brush With Death and Private Equity investors rescue. So why would you have confidence in Nikon, Canon and Sony? How long will Olympus last without Balance Sheet shenanigans and Sony support?
QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
For example: Pentax France is releasing information?
Yes. They did. Is that evidence of instability?
QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
All this talk about something new, etc. I'm all for it, but I wish they'd be more straightforward about,
By now we all know Ricoh doesn't operate that way. Really, which company does? When did you know Nikon was releasing the D750 - exactly when did you KNOW?
QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
ha, for example, the revision to the k mount.
What revision to the K-mount? K-mount is and always has been a FF mount. Everything I have ever heard - and I've heard it personally, directly from the lips of a high-ranking Ricoh Imaging Officer and posted about it on this Forum - everything I've heard is that Ricoh is committed to K-mount, Q and 645. So far they've been true to their word.
09-19-2014, 09:03 PM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Yes. They did. Is that evidence of instability?
It doesn't seem like evidence of much of anything. That's the problem.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
When did you know Nikon was releasing the D750 - exactly when did you KNOW?
When it came out at the right time at the right place.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
What revision to the K-mount?
What, apsc isn't a revision to an ff lens? Crippled aperture isn't a revision? To make a fully up-to-date, up-to-spec camera, something about the k mount may have to give. It'd be great if that weren't the case, but mounts do evolve over time.

Ha, maybe ricoh will bring back the dreaded "ricoh pin."
09-19-2014, 10:33 PM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
As I said before, I don't feel certain about the brand.
Why?
QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
but I wish they'd be more straightforward about, ha, for example, the revision to the k mount.
Straight forward about what? Revision to the k-mount? Ricoh has not changed anything? Last revision to k-mount was the Kaf2 which came out in 2006 I think with the K10.
QuoteOriginally posted by easyreeder Quote
Ha, maybe ricoh will bring back the dreaded "ricoh pin."
I assume that was meant as a joke?
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