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12-03-2014, 03:41 AM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Do you see the problem with that business case?
I think you missed this bit of his post:

QuoteOriginally posted by Pentax-K Quote
Many of my beginner hobbyist friends are buying FF Canon 5DmkIII and Nikon D810 cameras. These are not pro photographers. Pentax needs to get with it.
It's a competitive thing - if no Pentax FF, no customers like that.

It is also quite likely that many of those photogs went FF with a full arsenal of FF lenses already in their camera bags. Having lots of customers with existing lenses for their favorite mount never stopped Canon or Nikon making FF bodies and selling them to those folks. Having customers with some existing FF compatible lenses is not a problem unique to Pentax. I don't think it destroys their business case for FF.

12-03-2014, 04:24 AM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I think you missed this bit of his post:



It's a competitive thing - if no Pentax FF, no customers like that.

It is also quite likely that many of those photogs went FF with a full arsenal of FF lenses already in their camera bags. Having lots of customers with existing lenses for their favorite mount never stopped Canon or Nikon making FF bodies and selling them to those folks. Having customers with some existing FF compatible lenses is not a problem unique to Pentax. I don't think it destroys their business case for FF.
While this is all true, and while I completely agree with you, it is also true that by this reasoning alone a Pentax FF offering should have already have been in place for some years now. There has to be some sane reason why they didn't. Pentax needs to calculate the fact that such a camera won't trigger much additional lens sales into the price of the camera itself. Canon and Nikon however can push the margins a lot more.
12-03-2014, 04:44 AM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
There has to be some sane reason why they didn't.
It's really anyone's guess.
Paralysis by analysis? An abundance of caution? Poor leadership? No money? Company ownership change?

Technical reasons aren't the likely cause. Pentax could have made a decent FF several years ago (Sony started releasing the current generation of 24MP FF sensors in 2012), if not a few years earlier. Any delay in releasing a FF wasn't ever a decision made by Pentax engineers, I bet. The engineers have probably had functional FF's in the lab for years.
12-03-2014, 05:09 AM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
While this is all true, and while I completely agree with you, it is also true that by this reasoning alone a Pentax FF offering should have already have been in place for some years now. There has to be some sane reason why they didn't. Pentax needs to calculate the fact that such a camera won't trigger much additional lens sales into the price of the camera itself. Canon and Nikon however can push the margins a lot more.
Maybe the projections are that sales would be very small? One thing folks on web forums tend to overlook when calculating likely sales figures for FF vs APS-C is that in fact the numbers are predicated on professional, high-visibility, top-dollar marketing in each territory because that is what all the other camera-makers do. But Pentax does not do that and never has, at least since I've been using their cameras. In Japan, yes I expect they do but not much in Europe or North America so far as I can see. Thus Pentax have only a limited ability to bring their brand to the awareness of the customer, unlike most of the other camera-makers, and so something of a downward spiral is set up: few buy because few know, and few know because few buy. Maybe FF would be very hard for Pentax without a corresponding boost to the marketing department? I've no great interest in FF anyway, TBH. A really interesting, tech-packed new APS-C camera not using a mirrorbox would do a lot to restore customer focus on what Pentax can do (very well too), rather than on what they can't do (FF, because there isn't one), especially if it used a kick-ass next-gen sensor class of 2015. Still, even that would need Pentax to get out there and really shout about it, or few know and few buy, etc.

12-03-2014, 05:27 AM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Maybe the projections are that sales would be very small? One thing folks on web forums tend to overlook when calculating likely sales figures for FF vs APS-C is that in fact the numbers are predicated on professional, high-visibility, top-dollar marketing in each territory because that is what all the other camera-makers do. But Pentax does not do that and never has, at least since I've been using their cameras. In Japan, yes I expect they do but not much in Europe or North America so far as I can see. Thus Pentax have only a limited ability to bring their brand to the awareness of the customer, unlike most of the other camera-makers, and so something of a downward spiral is set up: few buy because few know, and few know because few buy. Maybe FF would be very hard for Pentax without a corresponding boost to the marketing department? I've no great interest in FF anyway, TBH. A really interesting, tech-packed new APS-C camera not using a mirrorbox would do a lot to restore customer focus on what Pentax can do (very well too), rather than on what they can't do (FF, because there isn't one), especially if it used a kick-ass next-gen sensor class of 2015. Still, even that would need Pentax to get out there and really shout about it, or few know and few buy, etc.
Depends how you look at it. An real innovating new offering, FF or not, generates a lot of free advertising. Of the kind that can't be beaten by any marketing budget. Do that often enough and there will be a strong upward spiral. Therefore, I really don't understand why they didn't market some kind of niche FF before Sony filled the biggest FF niches. Now, I see only one niche left: übercheap entry level FF cameras. I don't think they, or us, want them to go there.
12-03-2014, 05:41 AM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I don't think they, or us, want them to go there.
Depends on how you define ultra-cheap. A D610 or D750 price point Pentax FF would go down very nicely in the marketplace.

[Side note - look at the current D750 video review on DPR, and see everyone gushing over the D750 features and the price point. But half of that technology (-3 EV AF, Sony sensors with high DR, decent tracking AF, wireless flash etc ) is already there with Pentax. If Pentax brings stabilisation to the party and matches everything else in the D750 at the same low to medium price, it will be a big hit].
12-03-2014, 05:43 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Depends how you look at it. An real innovating new offering, FF or not, generates a lot of free advertising. Of the kind that can't be beaten by any marketing budget. Do that often enough and there will be a strong upward spiral. Therefore, I really don't understand why they didn't market some kind of niche FF before Sony filled the biggest FF niches. Now, I see only one niche left: übercheap entry level FF cameras. I don't think they, or us, want them to go there.
You see a "me-too" type of FF from Pentax/Ricoh wouldn't cut it either. New hobbyist would not be enticed to buy it instead of 5DMKIII or D810 since they are easily swayed by their friends that those two brands are better. There is no way that they could have done it before the release of k-3, which they have proven that they can do something better. Also after the release of 645z, they are in much better shape/chance to release a FF that will stand out in the crowd; so, timing is everything...
12-03-2014, 06:05 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Depends on how you define ultra-cheap. A D610 or D750 price point Pentax FF would go down very nicely in the marketplace.
But when it's at the D610 pricepoint customers would rather go for the D610 itself because of all kinds of reasons. So it would have to be even cheaper to motivate them. And that will earn them the mark of being the "cheap" brand. I don't want that, and I don't think I'm alone in that. I had that name once and they're still not quite done trying to shake it.

12-03-2014, 01:44 PM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
So, what you're saying here is: "Pentax, please build a camera for me despite the fact that you will not earn any (or not much) money on lenses, because I'm already fully set."? Do you see the problem with that business case?
Yes, but I still would have to buy the body. And a lot of Pentax users have tons of old film glass not just me. Those that want or need AF will buy new lenses probably or hunt for the use pricey F / FA ones. As someone else pointed out used glass has not stopped Nikon from making many FF (FX) cameras as well as new FX lenses.

I do see your point, did not think in that direction, I'm thinking as a advanced amateur / hobbyist photographer not a marketing executive. I want the best I can afford. I can't afford a $8k Pentax medium camera (plus the glass). For that I have to go to 4x5" sheet film as again I already have the cameras and lenses. A side note, I used to own a Pentax 6x7 camera until it died.

I might still buy more new glass to refine my collection. The M42, K and K(M) lenses are not fun or convenient to use on a digital camera (from a metering stand point as I rarely use AF anyway).
12-03-2014, 03:14 PM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
But when it's at the D610 pricepoint customers would rather go for the D610 itself because of all kinds of reasons. So it would have to be even cheaper to motivate them. And that will earn them the mark of being the "cheap" brand. I don't want that, and I don't think I'm alone in that. I had that name once and they're still not quite done trying to shake it.
I can honestly say that if and when Pentax releases a FF DSLR, I wouldn't 'rather go for the D610' on price alone.
All those usual suspects; features, ergonomics, lens compatibility, etc, all come to play. Given the previous track
records for both companies, I'm pretty confident I would choose the Pentax FF over the D610.

As for Pentax being perceived as a cheap brand, I think they're already shaking that image. Older, stuck in the mud
photographers might carry that torch but they're fading away to a younger audience who is discovering Pentax solely
on current product. And from my admittedly limited experience, Pentax is seen as something exotic and upscale
among that young audience.

I do see the shift happening, even if it appears to be happening slowly on a daily or monthly basis. But it is
happening. Young shooters are often excited by my 'exotic' camera. And here on PF we're seeing more and
more "I sold my Canon gear and bought a K-(*)" posts than I recall seeing in the past.

None of that answers whether Pentax actually needs to release a DSLR FF camera...., but I think the brand
is doing just fine at present and is perhaps healthier than it's been in 2+ decades.
12-03-2014, 03:39 PM   #236
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today, I've made comparison about K-3 and another some ''en vogue'' cameras. There are some ups and downs, but even a very new camera like Samsung NX1, excepting the video, Pentax is OK.

But will not be for long. Better said, will be for a very short time, maybe not more than 4 month.

---------- Post added 12-04-14 at 01:36 AM ----------

The title of this thread is:

Why Pentax should make a FF camera?

Because they must show that they can!!!! And this only thing put them in the upper class of camera makers.

Because there are a lot of users which want it. (Yes, some of you are not included).

Third Because this thing will show to the Sony propaganda machine, that they failed.(sic).
12-04-2014, 11:18 AM   #237
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While I am already satisfied with APS sensor I still hope Pentax/Ricoh will offer FF camera. Not because I intend to buy one, but because they need to compete and survive
Most professional photographers use FF for reasons I don't care to know. While they share a relatively small number in the market, still they should not be neglected. IMO make these pro photographers use your product and let them sell your brand. It's no different with other products such as sporting gears. You let a pro athlete wear your high end product and let the athlete sell your brand regardless of what line whether its high end or entry level. It may not be applicable to all but most people have this conception that a professional grade equipment is good and if its used by professionals it must be good. I' ll bet this is the kind of reasoning of some enthusiasts who bought Canon or Nikon. Pentax may not profit with the FF but there will be some sort of collateral boost in their other products once they are already known to offer competitive products in the mainstream market especially the younger generation who grew up knowing only two camera products.
12-04-2014, 10:37 PM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lakai Quote
Pentax may not profit with the FF but there will be some sort of collateral boost in their other products once they are already known to offer competitive products in the mainstream market especially the younger generation who grew up knowing only two camera products.
That is exactly what i have been saying.. perhaps Pentax will not make THAT much profit out of just selling FF cameras.. but what it represent for the brand will increse the selling of all the other cameras startig from entry levels.. because they will see that Pentax is a serious brand and not just a "hobby" brand ( sadly thats the idea that some people have ), we need professionals shooting reachable DLSRs ( by reachable i mean cameras that at some point an average costumer could buy ).. 645Z is a pro camera, but not a camera that average photographers will buy ( price, size, spects )... BUT having a FF will push all the sales and will show that yes, Pentax can play big too.
12-04-2014, 11:29 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
because they will see that Pentax is a serious brand and not just a "hobby" brand
Who is they? Maybe 'they' will be afraid of a brand that is too serious? Maybe 'they' want a brand that is not stuck with outmoded designs and big heavy cameras and lenses? Maybe 'they' don't want a camera that 'professionals' shoot with? Maybe 'they' want to be different? Maybe 'they' want small cameras with flashing LEDs on the side

Or maybe Ricoh thinks the most money is in the 'hobby' sector and does not want to compete in the 'professional' area.
QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
BUT having a FF will push all the sales and will show that yes, Pentax can play big too.
Why? Ricoh cannot get consumer priced cameras into stores in the US, why do you think they would have any chance of getting a far more expensive FF one in the door?

I think all this 'FF will save Pentax' talk is just ego. Other brands have a FF so Pentax must or Pentaxians will feel small. Other photographers will look down at poor Pentaxians because they must shoot with only small gear.
12-04-2014, 11:55 PM   #240
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