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12-05-2014, 03:53 AM   #241
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I don't care what professional photographers will do, neither what professional nay sayiers will say, I just want more choices.

Maybe I want to fly high. I don't want to look in the Canikon yard thinking ''what if...''

12-05-2014, 04:04 AM   #242
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I am the OP.
The one who threw the stone in the pond
I don't know why those who are "against" the Pentax FF selectively take a couple of lines of my post, ignoring others, and paying no attention to the successive posts. I don't know and frankly i don't care.
What is more mysterious is that many seem to believe that a FF body would be a commercial suicide and, at most, good only as a a "promotion" of the brand.
I agree that having a high-level camera can boost the sales of other products, but can't find a reasonable reason to deem, a priori, a FF body as non-profitable.
Sony photographic division is profitable, and they are selling the new full frame mirrors cameras as peanuts, to all those photographer who have a stable of orphaned vintage lenses still competitive with present-day offerings (read: high-end normal and tele primes).
A7 line of FF bodies aren't super expensive, though i think that they are NOT a loss for Sony.
Compared with other consumer electronic goods with similar technological content, cameras are still quite expensive, i really don't think they are sold at a loss. On top of that, many of those who buy a Sony body, to use vintage lenses, are affluent enough to buy Sony/Zeiss glasses. Some have actually done it, some are/will be tempted
Pentax lenses are not orphaned, there are APS-C bodies compatible with them (and that0's one of Pentax selling points), but many of those lenses (read all the wide-angles) are worthless on APS-C.
The point that Pentax must not release a FF body cause the customers won't buy the new lenses is moot.
I think it's true exactly the opposite: a restricted line of FF lenses is acceptable (at least initially) BECAUSE there are vintage lenses on the second-hand market which are still more than competitive!
If Pentax had anticipated, or at least immediately followed Sony, now the brand would have a much better positioning, and would sell more.
There was one day when Ricoh was a dwarf, and Pentax one of the three top brands.
Then, years of too japanese "threading waters", and of disgraced ownership, brought to where we are now.
You can't win a match of boxing only trying to avoid being punched!
Apple was on the verge of bankruptcy when Jobs returned... sometimes a risky move is better than trying to procrastinate the inevitable.
If Pentax is not small enough to be a niche brand, must be able to compete with at least a full line of cameras.
And to those who argue that Pentax is a lens seller, more than a camera seller, and must derive its profits from lens sales:
the 50mm f/1.4 was the better of its kind, at the time of the SMC Takumar; the Pentax-A* 85mm f/1.4 was again best, the Pentax-A* 200mm Macro is probably the best long macro ever.... remember me of the last time a Pentax lens bettered all its opponents in a credible benchmark?
If you don't sell high-end cameras you'll send few high-price lenses, and if you don't sell expensive lenses there is little to be invested in R&D, and the best optical engineers go elsewhere...

So a FF body could even be profitable, IMHO, but that's not the main point. Without it sales will never get better, and that would ring a very sinister bell

Last edited by cyberjunkie; 12-05-2014 at 04:10 AM.
12-05-2014, 04:21 AM   #243
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
But when it's at the D610 pricepoint customers would rather go for the D610 itself because of all kinds of reasons. So it would have to be even cheaper to motivate them. And that will earn them the mark of being the "cheap" brand. I don't want that, and I don't think I'm alone in that. I had that name once and they're still not quite done trying to shake it.
We'll see. Ricoh seems to keep really aggressive pricing on its camera bodies, but marks up its lenses quite a bit. If you look at current prices of K3 bodies versus D7100 bodies, particularly the package deals that were available recently, it under cuts the D7100 a lot.

I'm sure initial pricing will be high, but Ricoh wants to sell glass and increase their base. But I don't see the reputation of Pentax as a cheap brand any more -- it would be easier to argue that Pentaxians are cheap, but that's a different story. I would expect the camera body to be competitively priced, but the glass to be expensive for such a camera.
12-05-2014, 05:31 AM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Who is they? Maybe 'they' will be afraid of a brand that is too serious? Maybe 'they' want a brand that is not stuck with outmoded designs and big heavy cameras and lenses? Maybe 'they' don't want a camera that 'professionals' shoot with? Maybe 'they' want to be different? Maybe 'they' want small cameras with flashing LEDs on the side

Or maybe Ricoh thinks the most money is in the 'hobby' sector and does not want to compete in the 'professional' area.
Why? Ricoh cannot get consumer priced cameras into stores in the US, why do you think they would have any chance of getting a far more expensive FF one in the door?

I think all this 'FF will save Pentax' talk is just ego. Other brands have a FF so Pentax must or Pentaxians will feel small. Other photographers will look down at poor Pentaxians because they must shoot with only small gear.
Interesting. I spent part of yesterday with four photographer friends. Each of us uses a different brand - Fuji, Nikon, Olympus, Pentax, Sony. Only one of us is even tempted by FF - the Sony guy who has lots of fine legacy lenses, including some dinky Pentax 110 classics, and who is eyeing the A7 series. Why? Well, first the cost of upgrading any camera system is huge for most folks, something that internet forums completely underestimate. Second, we all think the camera market is going to change so much over the next few years that brand-jumping at the moment is crazy - out of frying pan into fire. The landscape is likely to change really quite substantially, not least because of the impact of high-power mobile processors and more sophisticated software. I think we all feel that it is better to continue with what you have than risk sinking big bucks into some new large-format system that is just as likely to be toast within five years as anything else. A new kind of "standard camera" will eventually emerge to replace the DSLR and today we are seeing the early stages of that change, with all the running being made by Samsung and Sony while Canon and Nikon sit on their hands. Perhaps better to wait until it is a lot clearer what that might be. The smaller brands, including Ricoh, are an irrelevance really. One hopes that the smaller brands will survive and continue to produce fine equipment, but it's the big three or four brands which will set the agenda and drive all the changes. The others will follow in their wake, at least for as long as their parent boards are interested.

12-05-2014, 10:44 AM   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Second, we all think the camera market is going to change so much over the next few years that brand-jumping at the moment is crazy - out of frying pan into fire. The landscape is likely to change really quite substantially, not least because of the impact of high-power mobile processors and more sophisticated software.
+1. Change is going to be rapid and disruptive.

QuoteQuote:
“I was kinda shocked,” says Verkovod during a Skype interview with KATU News, “because I wasn’t expecting taking a picture because we didn’t have our phones.”
This is a quote from a news article about a young man proposing. He was photographed doing it, and the image went viral. But note his comment: "I wasn't expecting taking a picture because we didn't have our phones". I think anyone involved in the camera industry should get a chill down their spines reading that.

Here is the full story: Gorge proposal photo: 'It went viral and people are looking for you' | Local & Regional | KATU.com - Portland News, Sports, Traffic Weather and Breaking News - Portland, Oregon
12-07-2014, 12:47 AM   #246
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I don t think developing bigger sensor is not a waste of investment. While I totally agree that technology is constantly evolving and the direction of development is towards more compact and portable devices, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is strictly going in the same direction in terms of sensor size. Technology is in the direction of increasing MPs and not the opposite and you can only put so much MPs in a given physical size as nature dictates. As one poster pointed out, going towards bigger sensor is inevitable.
And yes a new camera that may replace DSLR will soon emerge and I see it in the direction where Sony is heading and certainly it is not in the direction of making smaller sensors for their high ends. They are in the direction of bigger sensor, compact and lighter body, packed with useful features. I hope Pentax will consider this too and start with the K01 platform which has the advantage of in body SR plus better lens line up over Sony . They can also shorten the required sensor to flange distance to be able to mount different lens brands.
With reference to camera phones, despite the fact that people are now relying on their phones to take snaps, I still don't see it replacing a dedicated camera specially among serious photographers ( please pay attention to the word "serious" referring to the spectrum of amateurs to pros and not general pop who doesn't care if their pictures are too noisy or too orange or whatever ) even if there has been improvements in image quality of these camera phones. Why? Because a camera phone good enough to compete with the image quality of a good compact will be too expensive than buying dedicated separate devices.
A camera phone replacing a dedicated camera is an argument not far different with a tablet replacing a desktop. Both are handy and boast portability but not for serious works.
Now to put this argument in line with the topic of sensor size, I personally see it differently and I'll bet the tide of the future will still be in the direction of bigger sensor. Someday camera phone manufacturers will be done with MP size and newer sensor technology as their selling point and will start talking physical sensor size and interchangeable lenses. Only then will I reverse my view of camera phones replacing a dedicated camera but then again if the price is right.
12-07-2014, 04:05 AM - 1 Like   #247
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There are, IMO, some myths that must be debunked.

1. ''Cameras for enthusiast photographer will be smaller''. I don't think so. Look at Sony A7 second generation. It has a bigger, and redesigned grip, because, the first generation was a an ergonomic disaster. Now, this famous mirrorless flagship looks like a DSLR. And with the dedicated vertical grip, is quite big. So, when you try to see how the future cameras will look like, remember that those devices must be used by humans, not by little green man.

2. ''Reducing the flange distance is a good thing''. Not so much, because some optical problems emerge. So manufacturers makes smaller flange distance on mirrorless, and let a bigger distance inside the lens, between the mount and the last element, if they want to make real good lens, without bad IQ off center.

3. ''If the sensor became more performant on a very small size, the camera as a whole will be smaller''. Yes, but only if you forget the lens, or use a bad quality one. Because the laws of optics didn't change, and for a good IQ, you need big lenses. The resolution is strictly proportional with the diameter of the frontal element. Period.

Last edited by JimmyDranox; 12-07-2014 at 04:10 AM.
12-07-2014, 06:40 AM   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
There are, IMO, some myths that must be debunked.

1. ''Cameras for enthusiast photographer will be smaller''. I don't think so. Look at Sony A7 second generation. It has a bigger, and redesigned grip, because, the first generation was a an ergonomic disaster. Now, this famous mirrorless flagship looks like a DSLR. And with the dedicated vertical grip, is quite big. So, when you try to see how the future cameras will look like, remember that those devices must be used by humans, not by little green man.

2. ''Reducing the flange distance is a good thing''. Not so much, because some optical problems emerge. So manufacturers makes smaller flange distance on mirrorless, and let a bigger distance inside the lens, between the mount and the last element, if they want to make real good lens, without bad IQ off center.

3. ''If the sensor became more performant on a very small size, the camera as a whole will be smaller''. Yes, but only if you forget the lens, or use a bad quality one. Because the laws of optics didn't change, and for a good IQ, you need big lenses. The resolution is strictly proportional with the diameter of the frontal element. Period.
i really didn't want to say leica lenses don't have such a big diameter front element. But now i did somehow. Frankly, i don't care and i hope for a real big thing in Pentax FF. There seems to be some innovation on RICOH's side.
look:
Ricoh ???????????????????????????????So-net???

12-08-2014, 01:48 AM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lakai Quote
...
And yes a new camera that may replace DSLR will soon emerge and I see it in the direction where Sony is heading and certainly it is not in the direction of making smaller sensors for their high ends. They are in the direction of bigger sensor, compact and lighter body, packed with useful features. I hope Pentax will consider this too and start with the K01 platform which has the advantage of in body SR plus better lens line up over Sony . They can also shorten the required sensor to flange distance to be able to mount different lens brands.
With reference to camera phones, despite the fact that people are now relying on their phones to take snaps, I still don't see it replacing a dedicated camera specially among serious photographers ( please pay attention to the word "serious" referring to the spectrum of amateurs to pros and not general pop who doesn't care if their pictures are too noisy or too orange or whatever ) even if there has been improvements in image quality of these camera phones.
Good points.
Let's not forget that Pentax is using (exclusively) Sony sensors.
If Sony is following a certain route for their cutting edge cameras, i can't see how Pentax could continue with an APS-C only offer.
The best Sony sensors will be FF size. The difference in performance between FF and APS-C sensors is going to increase, not reduce.
With Sony sensors and Fuji processors, Pentax does only the (very important) optimization/image processing part.
Nikon does the same, but offers a full line, including the high-end parts offered by components manufacturers.

The old song "the phone will replace the camera" sounds out of tune with reality.
The people using phones are the same people who used Instamatics in the past.
Now everybody owns a phone who takes (often shity) pictures. Time ago everybody had something resembling a true camera.
Those who wanted to get serious about it bought a real camera. Today it is the same. If photography is not just selfies and documentation, with little or no creative effort, a phone is much better than an Instamatic in its time.
If you want more, definitely not.
And of course the law of ergonomics can't be ignored. Too small a camera becomes unusable

cheers

P
12-08-2014, 03:06 AM   #250
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let's all repeat:
fuji is not fujitsu,
fuji is not fujitsu,
fuji is not fujitsu,
fuji is not fujitsu...

Fuji produces cameras, film and photo.

Fujitsu produces hardware.(processors)


Fuji produces cameras, film and photo.

Fujitsu produces hardware.(processors)


Fuji produces cameras, film and photo.

Fujitsu produces hardware.(processors)


Fuji produces cameras, film and photo.

Fujitsu produces hardware.(processors)

12-09-2014, 08:04 PM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by patarok Quote


let's all repeat:
fuji is not fujitsu,
fuji is not fujitsu,
fuji is not fujitsu,
fuji is not fujitsu...

Fuji produces cameras, film and photo.

Fujitsu produces hardware.(processors)

Of course you're right
Being a computer technician i should know it well...
Lapsus

cheers

P
12-14-2014, 10:18 AM   #252
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One of the answers that Pentax has issued in the late spring about FF camera was that 645z is their answer for them. More than this, somehow, there was a rumor that ALL the production run of 645z from this year is already sold in advance. At that moment I had some doubts, but no proof to say other way. Now I think I have:

Claim up to 2 years interest-free credit on the PENTAX 645Z and lenses

So, IMO, it's clear. 645z is no substitute for an FF camera. Not even in terms of sales.
12-14-2014, 11:17 AM   #253
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
So, IMO, it's clear. 645z is no substitute for an FF camera. Not even in terms of sales.
I don't understand your point? They are offering to let you buy a 645z and pay in two years with no interest. Considering the cost is upwards of $10,000 why is offering a payment plan a problem? I don't know anyone who buys a car for cash, or furniture, or heavy appliances. And Ricoh sells / leases all of its copiers that way. Sounds like a good idea to me.

QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
there was a rumor that ALL the production run of 645z from this year is already sold in advance.
I do not believe that was a rumor but a statement from Pentax. And 'sold' means that they had dealer orders in hand for the entire production run, not that the cameras had been sold to consumers.

And no the 645z is not a substitute for a 24 x 36 sensor camera. Who ever said that? They said the 645z was better than a 24 x 36.
12-14-2014, 11:19 AM   #254
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QuoteQuote:
Sony photographic division is profitable, and they are selling the new full frame mirrors cameras as peanuts, to all those photographer who have a stable of orphaned vintage lenses still competitive with present-day offerings (read: high-end normal and tele primes).
A7 line of FF bodies aren't super expensive, though i think that they are NOT a loss for Sony.
According to other posts, people who know where to find the numbers, Sony is running up a pile of losses in their camera division, so I'm not sure you're helping you case with his one.
12-14-2014, 11:49 AM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I don't understand your point? They are offering to let you buy a 645z and pay in two years with no interest. Considering the cost is upwards of $10,000 why is offering a payment plan a problem? I don't know anyone who buys a car for cash, or furniture, or heavy appliances. And Ricoh sells / leases all of its copiers that way. Sounds like a good idea to me.


I do not believe that was a rumor but a statement from Pentax. And 'sold' means that they had dealer orders in hand for the entire production run, not that the cameras had been sold to consumers.

And no the 645z is not a substitute for a 24 x 36 sensor camera. Who ever said that? They said the 645z was better than a 24 x 36.
I'm not that old to not remember something like this. They said that the answer to FF request was 645z. Better or not, does not count, because is in another price range and with another mount.

And by the way, this is not the only sign that not all production run from this year wasn't sold before launch, as some people had claimed.
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