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12-14-2014, 12:02 PM   #256
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Putting things into context, IMO they would just prefer discussing about the amazing, newly launched 645z rather than explaining why they don't have a FF yet. The 645z is definitely not a FF replacement, but a superior offering (in terms of image quality and price).
And the 2 years free interest credit for the 645z, I think that's amazing - for a pro at least; it beats having to rent.
Production can be adjusted, they had months to do that.

12-14-2014, 12:18 PM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
Better or not, does not count, because is in another price range and with another mount.
Agree. So what? They said the FF will be released in 2015.
QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
And by the way, this is not the only sign that not all production run from this year wasn't sold before launch, as some people had claimed.
Don't agree. They are offering financing? So what. Has nothing to do with any 'claims' about production runs. No one claimed it, Pentax said it. And no reason to think otherwise. Just because they (Ricoh) sold the entire run to DEALERS does not mean the DEALERS sold it to CONSUMERS. And let me repeat, we are talking a $10,000 purchase here. Do you know people who drop that much cash on anything? I sure don't. They pay on credit, which Ricoh seems to be offering. Sounds like a good marketing strategy to me.

And means nothing about last years production run, what about next year's? They have a big success with this camera and are not going to stop now. Nor should they. For once they are out in front of all competition. So they should not be resting on last year's "we sold them all" but trying to sweeten the deal to keep on selling on them and prevent anyone else from getting a foothold. Other companies are rumored to be thinking about MF, so stop that right now by being so far in front no one wants to risk it.

I do not understand the negativity in your post. This is a GREAT thing. They are offering essentially the same deal that you could get on one of their copiers, which cost roughly the same by the way. Makes a lot of sense to me.
12-14-2014, 12:37 PM   #258
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You don't understand my negativity. Yes, because there is no negativity. Is simply care. You didn't ever has a dispute with someone who's important, and even beloved to you? I did.

What I dislike is when a success is used to overcome a gap. And for me, and maybe not only me, hiding the lack of a FF camera, which is long waited, (much too long), with the 645z, didn't look right. Not at all. Even more, some people leave the system because they believe that Pentax would never release a FF. Exactly because of that message from Ricoh. And some of them didn't believe until now. Can you blame them?
12-14-2014, 01:13 PM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
Yes, because there is no negativity. Is simply care.
Ok, I understand that.

Let us say you have a choice in doing two things. One will launch a product into a market segment where there is very little competition and almost assure you of dominance in that area maybe for decades. The other will introduce a product into a highly competitive market with very strong market leaders and an uphill battle because you have no distribution network.

Which do you choose?

It easy for us with no money on the line to say "do this now I want it". Not so easy when your job and maybe the future of the company is risked if you make a mistake.

Had Pentax released a FF even last year it would have been a flop and financial disaster. Possibly so bad as to remove them from the camera market entirely or at least to ensure there would never be another Pentax FF. I am confident they will release a FF camera, with a good selection of lenses (modern properly designed ones, not 20 year old antiques). But they will do so when all the pieces come together, not rushed out because a few people complained they "want it now". Releasing a FF could wait and has and the camera will be the better for it.

Release of the 645z was a brilliant market move by Ricoh and it could NOT have waited. They needed to protect their MF market from competition. As soon as the new MF sensor became available anyone with DSLR experience (Sony, Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Samsung) could have pushed out a MF competitor if they saw a market opening. By pushing the 645z into that category at a rock bottom price they made all others re-do their calculations and decide it was not worth it for such a small market.

Far better to dominate a small market with good margins than be #4 or #5 in a highly competitive market with shrinking sales and margins.

---------- Post added 12-14-14 at 12:17 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
And for me, and maybe not only me, hiding the lack of a FF camera, which is long waited, (much too long), with the 645z, didn't look right. Not at all. Even more, some people leave the system because they believe that Pentax would never release a FF. Exactly because of that message from Ricoh.
This is all about you not Ricoh. You want a FF so they should make it, no matter if they lose money on it, no matter if it will flop because they are not ready. People leave Pentax all the time, new people come in, so what? Anyone who really NEEDED a FF left years ago. So why should Pentax chase a few lost customers that are now quite happy with their Canon or Nikon? That is just silly, it does not make them any money.

But this is all just talk, in a few months you will see the new FF, and the new lenses.

12-14-2014, 02:56 PM - 1 Like   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Had Pentax released a FF even last year it would have been a flop and financial disaster. Possibly so bad as to remove them from the camera market entirely or at least to ensure there would never be another Pentax FF.
i'm not seeing that at all.

the k3 is a nice camera that is still dslr-competitive, so releasing a pentax ff is not going to make pentax crop sensor owners jump to another dslr crop sensor platform.

what a pentax ff camera would do is to keep pentax crop sensor owners who want ff from changing platforms, in order to get a ff camera.

every time that pentax loses a customer, they also lose a pentax flash/lens/accessory customer... it's not just the sale of the camera body that counts.

pentax camera owners don't "come and go", pentax market share has dropped from 5% in 2006 to 1.6% in 2014.

cipa data shows mirrorless is the only segment that's trending upwards, and pentax doesn't have a real mirrorless camera.

the 645z looks like a nice entry-level mf camera, but what's going to happen to it when canikon/sony all have much smaller, lighter, and cheaper 50mp cameras next year?

the problems here are bigger than just pentax ff.
12-14-2014, 03:01 PM   #261
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First. Of course that 645z is a very good product. No doubt about it.

On the other way, it seems that Pentax has a lot of his own line gaps to fill. That makes some users to question ''Where is Ricoh-Pentax going"

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/137-photographic-industry-professionals/2...tax-going.html

As I can remember, Ricoh is one of the first ''Top 500", not a ''Kickstart-Indiegogo'' firm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I also hope that Pentax will launch in a very short term some new camera, not only a FF, but also a cheap entry level one, to sustain the whole line.

And if you think that's my own exclusive interest is in FF, you're wrong, both ways., My point of view is based on many readings, here, on PF, and not so much on my personal preferences, which by the way, goes more to video oriented camera, FF or not. Who choose to ignore so many voices, can do whatever he wants.

But if we want that our relation with Ricoh to be a successful one, for both parties, we must speak our thoughts very clear. A dialogue could be very beneficial for both sides.

And if you think that some folks which left Pentax is a small thing, think again. Maybe for every one who express his intention, there are tens more silent.

Last edited by JimmyDranox; 12-14-2014 at 03:09 PM.
12-14-2014, 05:23 PM   #262
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I'm with jatrax, rushing out a FF won't do any good. Despite being owned by a large conglomerate, Ricoh Imaging is a small company, with limited resources - and they have to catch up technologically with the established competitors (e.g. new lenses, new FF components like AF, viewfinder, mirror...).
We can't do anything but wait. But, seeing the prototype lenses at Photokina, I feel we're getting closer

Indeed, the 645z had to be announced, and I'm afraid it might have caused further delays for the FF project. I cannot complain; the camera is a success.
12-14-2014, 05:51 PM - 1 Like   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
But if we want that our relation with Ricoh to be a successful one, for both parties, we must speak our thoughts very clear. A dialogue could be very beneficial for both sides.
I agree 100% but that will NOT happen here. They have stated several times they do not monitor this forum. They do monitor their own forum and usually reply quite quickly.
QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
And if you think that some folks which left Pentax is a small thing, think again. Maybe for every one who express his intention, there are tens more silent.
I still do not understand your point. Anyone who NEEDED a FF camera left years ago. So yes it is a small thing. An insignificant number of potential customers, really. In the FF poll only 354 out of 65,000 members even bothered to vote. To me that says that out of 65,000 forum members only 354 even care enough about FF to bother to vote.

But this is all silly, you seem to be arguing that only if we scream loud enough they will make a FF camera but they have already stated it is coming in 2015. There is no need to scream.

QuoteQuote:
pentax camera owners don't "come and go"
That does not seem to be true based on the constant stream of "Hi I just bought a Pentax camera" in the Introduction section.
QuoteQuote:
the problems here are bigger than just pentax ff.
Absolutely correct. The ONLY problem is Ricoh finding out how to make Pentax profitable. If that is releasing a 645z first and pushing the FF project back a year then that is what will happen. If that means selling 200 different colors of a camera with flashing LED lights, that is what will happen.

And respectfully, they know a whole lot more about how to run a profitable company than anyone wasting their time arguing things on an internet forum.

12-14-2014, 06:21 PM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Anyone who NEEDED a FF camera left years ago.
I have to disagree with that - more precisely, with the underlying assumption of a static user base. New people are coming and some of them will want this "FF" at some point, existing users' "needs" are changing. I estimate I'll need a FF camera in 5 to 10 years, for example

Because of this, the FF can still work out. It also means it's not a disaster that some people had left... wise choice, if they needed a FF then.
12-14-2014, 06:39 PM - 1 Like   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I have to disagree with that - more precisely, with the underlying assumption of a static user base. New people are coming and some of them will want this "FF" at some point, existing users' "needs" are changing. I estimate I'll need a FF camera in 5 to 10 years, for example
OK, I will need one within that time frame as well. And one thing that has always struck me is the loyalty many seem to have to Pentax, lots of folks left because they NEEDED a FF, but they still have k-mount gear and I think many would at the very least give a FF from Pentax a good look.

Let us be honest, any decent photographer will be able to make excellent images from any of the current cameras. People will argue a half stop this or that, a bit more dynamic range or less noise endlessly, but none of it really matters. In the end all that matters is the image produced, or it should, unless we think photography is about collecting and arguing about gear rather than taking pictures.

So what is the differentiation for Pentax? What do they have that Nikon or Canon do not? For me it is simply the ergonomics and weight of the camera. The k-5 and k-3 fit my hand. I've tried Canon and Nikon (in stores) and no thanks, they both feel WRONG somehow. So if Pentax comes out with a comparably performing FF camera with their signature ergonomics, menus, light weight and responsiveness I think it will succeed.

Will I buy one? Maybe, if someone can convince me I can take better pictures with it than I can with a k-3. If I can, then there is no question. But I am not going to buy one, at any price, just to boast I use a FF camera. The gear does not matter to me, the only thing that matters is the image produced.
12-14-2014, 09:48 PM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I still do not understand your point. Anyone who NEEDED a FF camera left years ago.
people have needs that change, so i don't get that at all.

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
So yes it is a small thing. An insignificant number of potential customers, really. In the FF poll only 354 out of 65,000 members even bothered to vote. To me that says that out of 65,000 forum members only 354 even care enough about FF to bother to vote.
if very few pentaxians need ff, why is pentax going to make a ff camera? if indeed they really are :-)

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
And respectfully, they know a whole lot more about how to run a profitable company than anyone wasting their time arguing things on an internet forum.
pentax market share dropping from 5% in 2006 to 1.6% in 2014 tells a different tale.

by comparison, sony had 9% of the digital camera market in 2005... they bought minolta in 2006, and by the end of 2013 they had 9%(?) of the dslr market, and 40% of the mirrorless market.

by 2017, they are predicting nearly half of their camera sales will come from mirrorless:
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/info/irday2014electronics/IPandS_E.pdf

Last edited by osv; 12-14-2014 at 10:23 PM.
12-15-2014, 01:11 AM   #267
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Where did you get the 1.6% figure for 2014? Do you have a link? Thank you.
12-15-2014, 04:17 AM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
i'm not seeing that at all.

the k3 is a nice camera that is still dslr-competitive, so releasing a pentax ff is not going to make pentax crop sensor owners jump to another dslr crop sensor platform.

what a pentax ff camera would do is to keep pentax crop sensor owners who want ff from changing platforms, in order to get a ff camera.

every time that pentax loses a customer, they also lose a pentax flash/lens/accessory customer... it's not just the sale of the camera body that counts.

pentax camera owners don't "come and go", pentax market share has dropped from 5% in 2006 to 1.6% in 2014.

cipa data shows mirrorless is the only segment that's trending upwards, and pentax doesn't have a real mirrorless camera.

the 645z looks like a nice entry-level mf camera, but what's going to happen to it when canikon/sony all have much smaller, lighter, and cheaper 50mp cameras next year?

the problems here are bigger than just pentax ff.
Huh?

There are too many weird statements here. First of all, the 645z in the current market is actually specified really well. These cameras are not known for having high end frame rates, tracking auto focus, or many of the other things that would be expected from a full frame SLR. As such, even though the 645z is priced low in the medium format market, it is still one of the best deals out there in that market.

Full frame market is much tougher. Pentax really needs a high end auto focus system and lenses to go with it at time of launch to compete in a crowded market. Releasing a K3 with a full frame sensor would have been a huge flop, although it was suggested many, many times on the forum.

Finally, Pentax does not need to worry about Canon/Nikon/Sony from a medium format standpoint. The medium format market is niche. There were probably some folks who decided to shoot a D800 instead of a 645D when the D800 was released, but I think if you own 645 lenses and like the output you are getting, you probably wouldn't see full frame as an option.
12-15-2014, 04:42 AM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Finally, Pentax does not need to worry about Canon/Nikon/Sony from a medium format standpoint. The medium format market is niche. There were probably some folks who decided to shoot a D800 instead of a 645D when the D800 was released, but I think if you own 645 lenses and like the output you are getting, you probably wouldn't see full frame as an option.
It seems that you are unaware of current rumors. A mirrorless medium format camera is in the pipeline from Sony. And with their current track record concerning development and with the fact that they already make the sensors for it theirselves, I think we don't need to take those rumors with any grain of salt. Needless to say, it's going to be easy for it to be a lot cheaper then the current cheapest MF offering.

But that's not even what OSV is referring to. He's referring to the 50mp and near 50mp FF-offerings from Canon and Sony next year.
12-15-2014, 06:29 AM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
It seems that you are unaware of current rumors. A mirrorless medium format camera is in the pipeline from Sony. And with their current track record concerning development and with the fact that they already make the sensors for it theirselves, I think we don't need to take those rumors with any grain of salt. Needless to say, it's going to be easy for it to be a lot cheaper then the current cheapest MF offering.

But that's not even what OSV is referring to. He's referring to the 50mp and near 50mp FF-offerings from Canon and Sony next year.
I figured OSV was referring to full frame and not medium format, when he made his comment. I just don't think there is that much overlap between those two markets. Anyone dropping over 8,000 on a camera and lenses, is not likely to flip that gear.

As to Sony being a threat with mirrorless medium format, I doubt it. The lenses just are unlikely to be there for quite awhile and it is lenses that will drive those bodies.
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