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09-12-2014, 07:25 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
+1

"If we don't have what you want, buy another brand!" only works as a strategy when you're already enourmously successful and inventory can't keep up with demand, and your bread n' butter product is on rock-solid ground.

In Pentax's case, if they don't really care about continuing K-mount, it's also an acceptable strategy.

In all other scenarios it's unfortunate for all involved, including the company.


.
lol.... ya, that must be it..

09-12-2014, 07:36 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
lol.... ya, that must be it..
Glad you agree Norm! As someone who has a lot invested in K-mount lenses, I know you're concerned about K-mount's future (unless you plan to retire from shooting before it's an issue for you.)

.
09-12-2014, 07:53 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
+1

"If we don't have what you want, buy another brand!" only works as a strategy when you're already enourmously successful and inventory can't keep up with demand, and your bread n' butter product is on rock-solid ground.

In Pentax's case, if they don't really care about continuing K-mount, it's also an acceptable strategy.

In all other scenarios it's unfortunate for all involved, including the company.


.
All, of course, assuming Nikon doesn't have some kind of exclusivity on the Sony 24Mp FF sensor in the D750 for, say, 6 months, which might lend some credence to the 'some time between immediately and spring' side of the It's Coming whispers.*



* Just thinking out loud. Sorry.
09-12-2014, 07:57 AM - 1 Like   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Glad you agree Norm! As someone who has a lot invested in K-mount lenses, I know you're concerned about K-mount's future (unless you plan to retire from shooting before it's an issue for you.)

.
I guess jay, for me, Pentax has already abandoned K-mount.. they make a fraction of what K-mount used to be... an old dying company but part of the history of photography, desperately hoping it can come up with something that will return them to former glory. Pentax is what they are here and now for me. And at my age, I don't need to consider the future the way young guys like you do. My dad was only 10 years older than me when he lost his vision to the point he could not drive or use his cameras. So I admit, where Pentax will be 20 years from now is pretty much irrelevant to me... I'm living in a bubble in terms of fretting about the future of Pentax. I guess it made me laugh because if I think about it very long, I'm going to cry.

Anyone that wants to be happy, isn't going to spend 5 minutes thinking about what's going on over at Pentax headquarters. They are focussed on what they can sell right now. And they clearly think another generation of Qs will sell them more cameras than a Pentax FF would. Better to buy an A7r with K adapter. 14.7 EV DR, hard to argue with that? Fits in my K-3 camera bag, hard to argue with that, 31 ltd images look super on it, hard to argue with that. Too bad Sony didn't buy Pentax.

Pentax could release a traditional FF dslr tomorrow and I might still look at an A7r.. it's a sensor pack that goes on a lens. Us old large format guys are used to that. But in terms of where Pentax is, that's just sad.

At this point, I don't think they are in a position to provide what I want, ever. I'm just glad Sony gave me an option.


Last edited by normhead; 09-12-2014 at 08:11 AM.
09-12-2014, 08:20 AM - 2 Likes   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
All, of course, assuming Nikon doesn't have some kind of exclusivity on the Sony 24Mp FF sensor in the D750 for, say, 6 months, which might lend some credence to the 'some time between immediately and spring' side of the It's Coming whispers.*



* Just thinking out loud. Sorry.
There's always that question, which I've subscribed to before too, but as far as I've ever seen it's never been anything but forum scuttlebut - no-one has ever come through with evidence of this exclusive agreement that precludes Pentax's (or anyone's) ability to buy a sensor until Nikon is 'done' with their exclusive window.

I think it speaks to our proclivity for conspiracy, which speaks to our need to imagine a higher order, guiding things intelligently, vs. a shotgun, 'get off my case true-D700-replacement obsessors' approach which results in a random executive's 'green' signal.

To put it another way, human nature dictates that conspiracy theories are actually more attractive than accepting an uncomfortable level of randomness, or in some cases (not here) incompetence.

Deep thought for the day. I have only one usually.
09-12-2014, 08:33 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
And at my age, I don't need to consider the future the way young guys like you do. So I admit, where Pentax will be 20 years from now is pretty much irrelevant to me... I'm living in a bubble in terms of fretting about the future of Pentax.
ditto.
09-12-2014, 10:17 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
To put it another way, human nature dictates that conspiracy theories are actually more attractive than accepting an uncomfortable level of randomness, or in some cases (not here) incompetence.
Actually, I am from the incompetence + predator + asset accumulator school (Asahi + HOYA/Sparxx + Ricoh), but whatever. The outcome is the same as you surmise. Pentax is actually gone as a company. Ricoh is the company and Pentax is a brand. At least in North America and maybe Europe it appears Asahi and Hoya allowed the corporate infrastructure to deteriorate to the point it will never be rebuilt. I've always believed HOYA's value-brand pricing strategy was a rather transparent tactic to clear the inventory of Pentax lenses they bought. HOYA had no intention of protecting the Brand Value - they just wanted to liquidate their investment and get out.

If that is true, the infrastructure is the barrier to entry Canon and Nikon have erected to protect themselves, not the cameras and lenses. For the most part cameras and lenses have commodity characteristics. The D750 needn't be specifically targeted at Pentax, but it has the same effect. Simply fragmenting the FF category further keeps Pentax from establishing momentum and building distribution (and to a lesser degree slows Sony mirrorless).

If Ricoh was actually close to launching their FF (as has been strongly hinted here) I would not be surprised to learn the pending D750 changed their mind.

Last edited by monochrome; 09-12-2014 at 10:24 AM.
09-12-2014, 10:40 AM - 2 Likes   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Actually, I am from the incompetence + predator + asset accumulator school (Asahi + HOYA/Sparxx + Ricoh), but whatever. The outcome is the same as you surmise. Pentax is actually gone as a company. Ricoh is the company and Pentax is a brand. At least in North America and maybe Europe it appears Asahi and Hoya allowed the corporate infrastructure to deteriorate to the point it will never be rebuilt. I've always believed HOYA's value-brand pricing strategy was a rather transparent tactic to clear the inventory of Pentax lenses they bought. HOYA had no intention of protecting the Brand Value - they just wanted to liquidate their investment and get out.

If that is true, the infrastructure is the barrier to entry Canon and Nikon have erected to protect themselves, not the cameras and lenses. For the most part cameras and lenses have commodity characteristics. The D750 needn't be specifically targeted at Pentax, but it has the same effect. Simply fragmenting the FF category further keeps Pentax from establishing momentum and building distribution (and to a lesser degree slows Sony mirrorless).

If Ricoh was actually close to launching their FF (as has been strongly hinted here) I would not be surprised to learn the pending D750 changed their mind.
But then every new announcement they seem to change their mind, to "we can't release an FF right now." Pentax has never indicated that their commitment to a full frame was anything more than a few guys meeting once a month to ask the question..

First guy "Hey, you seen anything cool in a Point and Shoot we could implement in a full frame to capture some attention.."
Second guy " Nope, everything has been done already."
Third guy " OK then, let's do lunch.. meet again next month?'
First guy " Who's going to plant the rumour on the Pentax forum that we are studying a Full Frame."
Third guy " That responsibility falls to the Executives, we just meet and consider."
Fourth guy " I think it's my turn to talk to marketing."
Second guy, "oh ya, because the Execs always say they'll have the final decision."
First guy "What's going to happen if marketing says it's a go?"
Fourth guy, "but we didn't give them anything !!"
Second guy "Marketing never even reads our meeting minutes. I know, I called Suziki's mother a cow in them once once and he never responded."
First guy, "we don't have our own marketing department anymore, Ricoh marketing has a lunch meeting to consider Pentax first and third thursday of every month. It's called the "wings beer and Pentax Thursdays". "
Fourth guy " If marketing says it's a go we all quit and go work for Tamron, we don't know anything about Full Frames."
First guy " They'd have to drink a lot of beer to OK a Full Frame for Pentax, I hear the Ricoh guys are working on one though, they have two meetings a month."
Third guy "Hey we aren't saying anything that can't be said over lunch, let's go, meeting adjourned."

Don't ask for my source, if I tell you I have to kill you.


Last edited by normhead; 09-12-2014 at 12:02 PM.
09-14-2014, 02:44 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by zmohie Quote
I think if the ff was that matter..olympus , fuji and others should catch the train.
FF market is tight . when I look at fuji concept and the many people who are leaving their heavy gears to this system i think pentax is right for not going to ff system. pentax need only to support their lenses.
Pentax uses APS-C sensors in cameras with fullframe mount. The problem is not APS-C or fullframe, but a desicion for one. Cameras designed for APS-C sensor sizes would be even smaller, lenses could be designed smaller... Pentax is keeping all options open, but they are way too small to afford that any longer. I would not demand a certain product camera format/lens... from Pentax, I would ask directions. A clear statement would also help Pentax to decide for new lens designs as well as cameras.
09-14-2014, 09:38 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
So your whole argument for adding a FF camera to the line is that some enthusiasts with 20 year old glass might buy it so they can use their old glass? If I'm sitting on the Ricoh product development committee that argument is not going to make me jump up and cheer for adding yet another format to the line.
There are I think valid reasons to add a FF camera, but 'so we can use our old glass the way it was intended' is not one of them.
Well, the reason may be not valid of course, but one customer who wants exactly that - 20-40 years old glass on FF- Pentax would have.
I'm starting saving money toward FF camera because my main interest in photography IS old manual lenses. I have very little interest in using modern glass, there is no joy there for me. I will continue building my collection of old lenses, and I want them to shine on their native format.

I wish my FF would be Pentax, but it will be either Canon 6D (cheaper), or Canon Mark (more time to stretch the budget). I have no intention to go on professional level, just want joyful hobby. So, I will bring my money to Canon instead of Pentax even it makes me sad because I don't want to lose the quality of Pentax and quality of Pentax crowd. No offence to Canon users, but the percentage of good pictures is higher here than on Canon forums, imo.
I may be a lousy photographer, but I do have eyes.
09-14-2014, 10:43 AM   #131
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My likely unpopular Post.

PENTAX WILL NEVER MAKE A FF DSLR LESS THAN 36mp. Not their strategy... IF AT ALL...

a FF MILC? Absolutely, with an EVF better than competitors. K-Mount.... 18 mos out...Probably 36MP. When everybody else has them In DSLR. No need for a DSLR. Next DSLR? 32-36MP APSC. More points in AF, bigger buffer. After an ultra wide DA*/Pro is out. 15-18mos. FF continues to shrink.
09-14-2014, 07:53 PM - 3 Likes   #132
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I think Pentax should make a FF because APS-C is still considerably behind FF in low-light performance, and Pentax needs to move to FF to bridge the gap.

Using DxOMark to provide data, it is revealing that it has taken 10 years for even the worst performing full-frame (a few dud Leicas excluded) to be beaten by an APS-C body on the DxOMark Sports-Low-Light metric.

The 2014 Nikon D3300 APS-C has a DxOMark low-light score of 1385 ISO, which just narrowly beats the low-light score of the ancient 2005 Canon 5D FF (1368 ISO). Pic related:



Above 1388 ISO, and all the way up to the current high score of 3702 ISO, it's all full-frame or larger formats. To let users operate with great IQ in the space above 1388 ISO, Pentax needs to get into FF or better.

While the new Samsung ISOCELL sensor tech may provide some possible improvements to APS-C low-light IQ, it still seems likely that APS-C will still remain considerably behind FF and larger in low-light.
09-14-2014, 07:56 PM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
it still seems likely that APS-C will still remain considerably behind FF and larger in low-light.
A convincing case.
09-14-2014, 08:30 PM   #134
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Outside of "FF is better" which I get, can someone explain in small words what this means? What is a "low ISO score"? And how does that relate to me taking a picture on a particular day? I see Sony A7 @ 3702 and Nikon D3300 @ 1385 so what does that mean in the real world?
09-14-2014, 08:41 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
can someone explain in small words what this means
DxOMark talks abour ranking things based on 'usage scenarios' - ie typical ways people will use their cameras. So the 'Sports & action photography: Low-Light ISO' score is all about:

QuoteQuote:
...photojournalists and action photographers often struggle with low available light and high motion. Achieving usable image quality is often difficult when pushing ISO.

When shooting a moving scene such as a sports event, action photographers’ primary objective is to freeze the motion, giving priority to short exposure time. To compensate for the lack of exposure, they have to increase the ISO setting, which means the SNR will decrease. How far can they go while keeping decent quality? Our low-light ISO metric will tell them.
The numeric score DxOMark assigns to a camera "is the highest ISO setting for a camera that allows it to achieve an SNR of 30dB while keeping a good dynamic range of 9 EVs and a color depth of 18bits" - in other words, the highest ISO a camera can go whilst still delivering excellent image quality.

So the K-3, according to DxOMark, can meet this criteria at ISO 1216, but the Nikon D610 can do it at ISO 2925.

The DxOMark low-light scores feel about right for the cameras I have experience with.
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