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09-20-2014, 04:44 PM - 2 Likes   #76
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The imaginary path

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote

Seriously, an ad campaign by Pentax emphasizing their upgrade path of Medium format would be quite effective.
What upgrade path?

The 645Z doesn't share a mount with Pentax's aps-c products. It's no more an 'upgrade path' to a K-3 than a D800 or D4 or Hassleblad or Leica MF is.

For that matter & for the same reason the 645Z is just as much of an upgrade path to a Nikon/Canon/Sony shooter as it is for a Pentax shooter.

---------- Post added 09-20-14 at 05:53 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by btnapa Quote
Can't blame Ricoh for not wanting to canibalize 645z sales before intro of a FF DSLR. .
The cannibalization would be very minimal.... Just a nibbling on some fingers & toes, as it were.

Try to follow this, because I had some trouble articulating it clearly even though the concept is clear: The folks in the market for a medium format camera who also might be swayed by FF are already swayed by existing FF bodies - just because it says "Pentax" the 645 customer would not be more swayed by a suddenly appearing Pentax FF** than, say, a Canon or Nikon or Sony FF, since none of them use the same mount anyway as the 645.

The only medium-format shopper who would be more swayed by a Pentax FF would be an extreme Pentax loyalist - someone who's willing to buy a product just because it says Pentax, specs notwithstanding. I don't know how many folks like that really exist in the $15,000+ kit market.

The vast majority of folks interested in a Pentax FF will be aps-c (and m43) upgraders, currently shooting Pentax aps-c and other systems that don't offer an FF upgrade path. The Medium Format market is and always has been largely distinct from this, mainly because of price points.

** edit: unless maybe it came in at 54MP and set the FF benchmark for a bit

---------- Post added 09-20-14 at 05:59 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
An alternative notion is they have the production lines allocated now, they can start with a HD DFA* 70~200/2.8 ED AL (IF) SDM (which is a new SDM) and a tele zoom, fairly quickly add a HD DFA* 24~70/2.8 ED AL (IF) SDM and a wide zoom. They'll rotate lenses, bodies and products across all four platforms, staying in the news constantly, building a reputation, recognition, presence and momentum - and eventually adding capacity.

All it will take is determination, constant work and time.
+1. Glad to see some folks coming around to my 2011 argument

If that path was embarked on in 2011, though, Pentax would have skated to where the puck was going to be. I guess trying to catch up where it is now is better than sitting on the ice waiting for the buzzer, though.




Last edited by jsherman999; 09-20-2014 at 10:02 PM.
09-20-2014, 09:20 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There is nothing wrong with "another black box," as long as it has good specs. As to being ten years behind, once again that is no big deal. Making an APS-C SLR and making a full frame SLR aren't that different and clearly the K3 is specified pretty well in comparison to other top APS-C SLRs currently available.
Fair point, but one of my concerns - which I really didn't state well at all - is that I don't believe Pentax can competitively sustain production of 4 formats outside of Japan - and since I'm not living in Japan I have to consider that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If what Pentax offers and will offer in the future doesn't work for you, it is probably best to switch systems. Life is to short to waste shooting gear that is poor and frustrating to you.
The gear isn't frustrating, the lack of leadership commitment is. Your point stands nonetheless. Which is why I'm where I am now. I'm not even considering full-frame digital anymore. When I can make the numbers work I'll leapfrog straight to medium format; I hope I can stay with Pentax when that time comes.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I would just say as well, that Pentax doesn't have to sell huge numbers of a given camera to turn a profit, they just need to be honest with their projections, not over produce that camera and price it correctly.
To tool up for FF something has to give. They'll have to shut down some/all APS or Q lines, unless Ricoh is going to dump massive amounts of capital into expanding manufacturing and assembly facilities. Which means entry into a new market means sacrificing shares of an existing market. And Pentax doesn't have much to give up in any market.

I'm not bagging on Pentax cameras; as I said earlier I've been using them for 30+ years. I'm pretty fond of the black boxes of photonic magic I own. But Pentax had a more cohesive product line in 1984 than it does today, and in my opinion jumping into full-frame 35mm won't improve their position.
09-20-2014, 10:09 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
What upgrade path?

The 645Z doesn't share a mount with Pentax's aps-c products. It's no more an 'upgrade path' to a K-3 than a D800 or D4 or Hassleblad or Leica MF is.

For that matter & for the same reason the 645Z is just as much of an upgrade path to a Nikon/Canon/Sony shooter as it is for a Pentax shooter.

---------- Post added 09-20-14 at 05:53 PM ----------


.
Just try to relax. I was making what i still think is a funny joke. If you can't joke about your vocation or hobby a little bit, then what's the point in being in photography???

Yes, i know everything you're saying, but you are wrong on one point. The 645Z likely shares some of its firmware and menu system with its K-mount relatives. If you're coming from a K-mount camera, then there will be some familiarity with the menu system and perhaps some of the other features/terminology. Even though the mount and lenses are different.

I know a Nikon shooter in my photography club. She has 3 lens for her D7000, and plans to upgrade to a FF Nikon. Very likely, none of her consumer zoom lenses will allow her to make full use of the FF camera she intends to buy. Therefore In my opinion, her Nikon upgrade path lacks a bit of compatibility too.

I have noticed recently that there area a lot of very funny ads on TV channels lately. I suspect they are a trend out there from the often hilarious ads one sees during a Super Bowl game. So if Pentax can learn to use some funny ads, that might get them a lot more attention than being ultra serious all the time.
09-21-2014, 07:45 AM   #79
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The Halo Product gambit

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Just try to relax. I was making what i still think is a funny joke. If you can't joke about your vocation or hobby a little bit, then what's the point in being in photography???
I'm relaxed I was lumping you in with the folks who truly think the 645 provides a Pentax-specific 'upgrade path'... somehow. (They're numerous.)

QuoteQuote:
Yes, i know everything you're saying, but you are wrong on one point. The 645Z likely shares some of its firmware and menu system with its K-mount relatives. If you're coming from a K-mount camera, then there will be some familiarity with the menu system and perhaps some of the other features/terminology. Even though the mount and lenses are different.
I know, but that IMO is a pretty weak link. Someone who might not buy a MFD body because they might have to crack a manual? Pretty few & far between. (also, aside, am I the only one who likes to learn new systems? New phones, new OS's, new devices... For me reading a manual and discovering the bells & whistles in a new UI is kinda fun, I look forward to it. One of the disappointments I had in my new iPhone 6 is that IOS 8 is not 'different enough' )

That said, it could still be used in advertising as a halo product, ie ads targeted not really at Medium Format buyers, but at aps-c DSLR buyers - as in, "Look at the gamut of equipment we sell, all the way up to these extreme-pro, huge DSLR devices that you can proximate yourself to even if you can't afford them by buying a lesser device with the same name on the front!" Works for a percentage of Canon/Nikon aps-c buyers, why not?

The substantial difference is those Canon/Nikon buyers can mount and AF all their aps-c lens purchases on their halo products, even the ones specifically only for aps-c - Pentax aps-c buyers can't.

In other words, the Canon/Nikon Halo Products truly provide an Upgrade Path in addition to a Halo.

.


Last edited by jsherman999; 09-21-2014 at 08:03 AM.
09-21-2014, 09:30 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Pentaxo non delenda est.
I would rather say, Pentaxo esse non delendam, otherwise my equipment is worth nothing anymore.
09-21-2014, 11:34 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I know, but that IMO is a pretty weak link. Someone who might not buy a MFD body because they might have to crack a manual? Pretty few & far between. (also, aside, am I the only one who likes to learn new systems? New phones, new OS's, new devices... For me reading a manual and discovering the bells & whistles in a new UI is kinda fun, I look forward to it. One of the disappointments I had in my new iPhone 6 is that IOS 8 is not 'different enough' )
I'm not saying this to contradict you, but 2 years ago when I had the first contact with Leica S2 I spend quite some time trying to figure out how to perform simple operations like magnifying an image. Obviously I can do that easily with any Pentax DSLR, and it doesn't take me long to figure it out with a new Canon, Nikon, Olympus etc.

Perhaps people other than hardcore PhaseOne and Hasselblad fans finding out how easy to operate it is, might be a strong sales point.

P.S. I used to read the manual for my cameras even before buying them. Now, I don't, not for Pentax - I don't need to anymore; just a glance through the menus and I know what function is doing what.
09-22-2014, 12:26 PM   #82
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Usability is an area where DSLR's could definitely be improved.
10-19-2014, 02:44 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I don't know how many folks like that really exist in the $15,000+ kit market.
I am not one of those people, but i wanted to admit that we live in times and places where we get told by some media that world economy is ruined, and meanwhile Ferrari and Porsche sell more cars than ever. (Ferrari sold 7,318 units in 2012 and they just offered a family car. the Ferrari FF. no that is no wordplay that is a fact. that is a ferrari where 4 peoples can take place comfortable and with a 4x4 drive- yes sir, of course you can buy a roof rack for your skiers along with your ferrari)
So i bet my ass on the fact, that there are many people out there who will buy a 645Z without moving a muscle.

So i guess again and i guess i am guessing very good: Normal people only know what the other people(very rich and with a big and wide spread coterie) let us know.

And no, it is not Pentax anymore, it is RICOH IMAGING that leads the Pentax brand(for ILC cameras) into the future.

So my considered opinion is, that a company that has an OFFICIAL revenue of est. 17.754.272.069,249 USD (2012)and a netto income of app. 300.000.000 USD(2012) has no problem with producing 4 formats, and if the market would have had appreciated the GXR they would even drive 5 formats...
And no, they did not start to build cameras when they bought PENTAX.

And please consider, that the production process of a dslr is not that different from the production of some cellphone. So that upcoming full frame and a new lens lineup won't brake such a titans leg. FORGET THIS "poor-company-has-production-process-costs"-ANGST

10-23-2014, 04:05 PM   #84
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Most folks would have to sell their entire K-mount kit AND their car to afford one 645Z and one new lens...and I am not being facetious by saying they would have to sell their car either. I know I couldn't fetch $8K for my used 2005 Silverado, and I know that I am not the only one.

If Pentax sold a FF for say 2500, you could save up a few months and already use the FF glass you have in your bag.

To call the 645Z an upgrade path for Pentax users is like saying a Dodge Viper is an upgrade path from a Dodge Dart.
10-23-2014, 05:11 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Try to follow this, because I had some trouble articulating it clearly even though the concept is clear: The folks in the market for a medium format camera who also might be swayed by FF are already swayed by existing FF bodies
Not really; I'm in that camp. To me mid-range Canons feel like plastic Barbie-cameras, and while Nikon is closer to good, it's got quirks. Plus the the cost of replacing my FF K-mount lenses is the same price as a 645Z...

QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
- just because it says "Pentax" the 645 customer would not be more swayed by a suddenly appearing Pentax FF** than, say, a Canon or Nikon or Sony FF, since none of them use the same mount anyway as the 645.
Yes, if I follow you.

QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
The only medium-format shopper who would be more swayed by a Pentax FF would be an extreme Pentax loyalist - someone who's willing to buy a product just because it says Pentax, specs notwithstanding. I don't know how many folks like that really exist in the $15,000+ kit market.
Maybe I don't count (or am rare), but I'd take either a 645Z or a FF, only because I already have lenses for both systems.

The only thing really holding me back from buying the 645Z is the lack of a Pentax FF to compare it to. I guess you could call that 'extreme patience'.

I bet the losers in the Pentax marketing department never saw that one coming... they are canibalizing their own sales with a product they don't even make...
10-24-2014, 12:33 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
To call the 645Z an upgrade path for Pentax users is like saying a Dodge Viper is an upgrade path from a Dodge Dart.
I know, thats why its such an effective ad campaign material. Last week I visited a store just 30 miles away from called Robi's Camera Store in Tacoma, WA. They had a 645Z in a showcase display case along with lots of other Pentax equipment. They also do printing of various kinds in a very busy shop. I was so shocked that i didn't have the nerve to ask them to show it to me. How cool is that.

Hey Ricoh - take out an ad that shows a 645Z next to a K3 next to a Q: and it should say: WE HAVE IT ALL
10-24-2014, 12:44 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
To call the 645Z an upgrade path for Pentax users is like saying a Dodge Viper is an upgrade path from a Dodge Dart.
I think it is a psychological upgrade path. Few if any people actually take it, but the comfort of knowing that if you really did get good enough to need a medium format, hey Pentax has you covered.
10-24-2014, 12:54 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I think it is a psychological upgrade path. Few if any people actually take it, but the comfort of knowing that if you really did get good enough to need a medium format, hey Pentax has you covered.
I believe a 645 film camera owner may find the 645D/Z to be an upgrade path.
10-24-2014, 01:09 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
I believe a 645 film camera owner may find the 645D/Z to be an upgrade path.
I tend to agree. I loved the 645N when I had one on loan a few years ago, but would have liked a little more negative to balance the extra bulk of kit. The 645D/Z is just enough "more" to justify the purchase as a step up.


Steve
10-24-2014, 02:14 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
I believe a 645 film camera owner may find the 645D/Z to be an upgrade path.
I think the conversation was mostly from APS-C or FF to MF, but you make an excellent point. Pentax is a viable player in the MF market and though most topics on this forum revolve around APS-C or FF, Pentax also has to provide new bodies and lenses and an upgrade path for their MF customers.

I do think they would gain from a marketing campaign showing the breadth of their line and showing the 645z as the ultimate "upgrade". But I guess they need marketing dollars before we worry about how to spend them.
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