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10-05-2014, 06:33 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
Sure, their marketing approach is slow and steady, not big and brash, but they also don't hesitate in displaying all the awards the K-3 has won. I don't believe they saw the unanticipated success of the 645z as an unwelcome occurrence.

Similarly, I don't think they would be at all upset if the FF is more successful than projected.
Yes, I agree - my point is that we should stop asking them to be Canon and Nikon. They aren't going to do the things like massive advertising, financing B&M dealer inventory, intentionally building large plants and making high volumes of average cameras to push through box stores at low margins - but we keep asking for the ads and the Rep coverage and the B&M distribution that the high volume makes possible (and requires).

It's contradictory to want one and not the other.

When I've said they won't compete what I've meant is they won't adopt the CaNikon business model, not that they won't try to make better products and get people to buy Pentax in place of the other products.

10-06-2014, 03:37 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Yes, I agree - my point is that we should stop asking them to be Canon and Nikon. They aren't going to do the things like massive advertising, financing B&M dealer inventory, intentionally building large plants and making high volumes of average cameras to push through box stores at low margins - but we keep asking for the ads and the Rep coverage and the B&M distribution that the high volume makes possible (and requires).

It's contradictory to want one and not the other.

When I've said they won't compete what I've meant is they won't adopt the CaNikon business model, not that they won't try to make better products and get people to buy Pentax in place of the other products.
Ok, well I misread your assertions then, and we agree entirely. I was never advocating the Canikon business model anyway, just that they should (and are) continue to make quality products that entice people away from the big boys.

I think a controlled-growth approach is very clever, and would much prefer them to continue focusing on quality over quantity, quietly stealing market share from the others. Go Ricoh!
10-06-2014, 04:30 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
Ok, well I misread your assertions then, and we agree entirely.
My wife frequently accuses me of coming to a conclusion in my own mind and assuming everyone else understands me, as if by some kind of telepathic link, then becoming snippy when I need to explain myself.
10-06-2014, 04:40 PM   #94
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I was going to say you could have articulated your point a wee bit better but...no matter...we got there in the end

10-06-2014, 05:24 PM   #95
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It's "unfortunate" that the 645Z wasn't 60-80MP because there's probably going to be a few FF cameras with sensors the order of 54 or 63MP within a year or two that will affect its sales. I realize those cameras will probably not have the same IQ but they'll get close. For instance, the new Samsung 28MP APS-C sensor would come in at 63MP on a FF model.

Karma is about the fact that with each action you take there are multiple spinoff actions that are required in order to service those choices. If Ricoh deliberately nobbles their FF offering to protect their MF business then they'll lose out to other manufacturers who don't need to do that. That's not to say that the next 645 model won't be 80-100MP though.

Last edited by bossa; 10-06-2014 at 06:05 PM.
10-07-2014, 03:47 AM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
It's "unfortunate" that the 645Z wasn't 60-80MP because there's probably going to be a few FF cameras with sensors the order of 54 or 63MP within a year or two that will affect its sales. I realize those cameras will probably not have the same IQ but they'll get close. For instance, the new Samsung 28MP APS-C sensor would come in at 63MP on a FF model.

Karma is about the fact that with each action you take there are multiple spinoff actions that are required in order to service those choices. If Ricoh deliberately nobbles their FF offering to protect their MF business then they'll lose out to other manufacturers who don't need to do that. That's not to say that the next 645 model won't be 80-100MP though.
Spot on. Sony will launch a ~50mp camera early next year. And Canon has rumored/leaked to present their 50mp-ish even before that in the coming period. High Megapixel rumor war update (Canon coming soon?) | sonyalpharumors

Things are currently happening so fast, it's hard to even determine what we need, because the possibilities change constantly. It's easy to get paralyzed while awaiting all the developments.
11-02-2014, 11:44 AM   #97
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Size matters. I wouldn't want a Pentax FF to be any larger or heavier than my K-7.

It's bad enough the K-7 being larger and heavier than the various FF film SLRs I've owned, apart from the hefty 'lumps' of the 60s and 70s. My S3 and Spotty from that era were exceptionally lightweight and compact, while the MX that served as my front-line camera for more than 20 years was a delightful little gem and is much missed.

My first encounter with a dSLR was the *ist DS, which I still take out on an occasions because it's small and inherited many of the sharp-handling qualities we prized from the film era, and it wasn't overloaded with unwanted and irritating features. I read somewhere on the Forum a while ago that the *ist D series incorporated a full-frame mirror box just in case Pentax decided to take that route. My DS also includes a nice large pentaprism, so it all makes me think that there's no real reason why a FF body needs to exceed the weight and size of the *ist package.

I suspect someone is now going to correct me and tell us why a FF dSLR has to be a lumpish burden.

As I sit here looking at my M4/3 Lumix G5 (to which I've migrated for long hikes) I don't believe Panasonic's design team would come up with anything as big and ugly as Canon's offering if handed the job of scaling up to FF.
11-02-2014, 03:35 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused Quote
I read somewhere on the Forum a while ago that the *ist D series incorporated a full-frame mirror box just in case Pentax decided to take that route.
Interesting. The *ist D also lacks shake reduction. I wonder if the absence of SR was connected to the requirement to plan for FF (whilst keeping the body compact), or just the immaturity of their SR technology at the time.

11-02-2014, 04:23 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused Quote
Size matters. I wouldn't want a Pentax FF to be any larger or heavier than my K-7.

It's bad enough the K-7 being larger and heavier than the various FF film SLRs I've owned, apart from the hefty 'lumps' of the 60s and 70s. .
I still think my SFXn is the perfect size, if a tad heavy! Nice deep grip, like my K-5, but wider and a little taller, which makes for easier holding without a battery grip.
11-02-2014, 10:07 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I expect , price, weight, and the amount of space it takes in my camera bag will all be limiting factors.

Besides, my K-3 is awesome.....it's like a K-5 is what I needed and the K-3 is luxury...


Weight is already a limiting factor with my K-3 / K-5 Gear, especially for nature photography... so... I think I will get a camel

11-03-2014, 01:44 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by unfocused Quote
I read somewhere on the Forum a while ago that the *ist D series incorporated a full-frame mirror box just in case Pentax decided to take that route. My DS also includes a nice large pentaprism, so it all makes me think that there's no real reason why a FF body needs to exceed the weight and size of the *ist package.
Anybody correct me if I'm wrong. But I was under the impression that the K-mount was an FF format mount period, including the mirror box. (Register distance has remained the same too.) The *ist also still had a mirror to support the FF format too. That did get changed to APSC in later models. That's why I don't understand why it's so hard to come up with an FF format camera. They seem to have all the tools they need. It has got to be something due to non-hardware related issues. Like upper management politics, strategies or ignorance.
11-03-2014, 02:05 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Weevil Quote
Weight is already a limiting factor with my K-3 / K-5 Gear, especially for nature photography... so... I think I will get a camel

With all those K-mount gear it would have to be a Kamel!
11-03-2014, 03:02 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Anybody correct me if I'm wrong. But I was under the impression that the K-mount was an FF format mount period, including the mirror box. (Register distance has remained the same too.) The *ist also still had a mirror to support the FF format too. That did get changed to APSC in later models. That's why I don't understand why it's so hard to come up with an FF format camera. They seem to have all the tools they need. It has got to be something due to non-hardware related issues. Like upper management politics, strategies or ignorance.
Well, er, and money/ROI ... how much clamour is there for yet another FF OVF DSLR outside Pentax? There are plenty around already.
11-03-2014, 03:47 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Well, er, and money/ROI ... how much clamour is there for yet another FF OVF DSLR outside Pentax? There are plenty around already.
Niches enough though. And Pentax is about niches, they openly confirmed that. But even those seem to be uninteresting for Pentax. Canon found a niche we expected Pentax to jump into: The rumored Canon LX-D. So it's gotta be reluctant upper management that's been holding back development.
11-03-2014, 03:54 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Niches enough though. And Pentax is about niches, they openly confirmed that. But even those seem to be uninteresting for Pentax. Canon found a niche we expected Pentax to jump into: The rumored Canon LX-D. So it's gotta be reluctant upper management that's been holding back development.
If it's as "good" as Project Ara for smartphones I'll say let Canon have it!
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