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09-29-2014, 08:21 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I don't see how aps-c DSLR sustains them more than 10 (5?) years longer in the face of MILC and lower-cost FF. Remember - past "Pentax is doomed!" exclamations came before we had this MILC and lower-cost FF disruption.
There is (was) much more broken at Pentax than just the product / mounts conundrum. IMHO Ricoh has a multi-year plan to remake Pentax, beginning with internal processes we'll never see. If APSc buys them five or ten years of relevance and profitability while they reshape the personnel, engineering, design and manufacturing processes then they'll be fine. We shall see whether Ricoh can rebrand Pentax as the 'image' brand and let the other guys be the 'gear' brands.

Nothing is static. Any company can theoretically introduce a leapfrog product or technology at any time (vis. Fuji) and rapidly gather market share. I think it is a larger challenge to reshape consumer taste (gear matters only to the extent it allows a photographer to produce a better image - and we're redefining what is a good image). Given the parallel -S1 product line it seems Ricoh is taking a much longer view than five or ten years. They're already doing battlespace prep for when old dogs like me stop buying gear - or just die.

09-29-2014, 08:34 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
In other words, people are overly fixated on certain paths (be it FF or MILC), not seeing the reality around them (APS-C DSLRs dominating the ILC market) and criticizing Pentax for not fitting on their "Pentax suxx, other brands are better" scenario?
It will always be a sunny day. The storm clouds you see on the horizon will never arrive. Preparing for rain is a foolish waste of time.

Mark Weir, Sony: It’s widely acknowledged that major categories in imaging have declined at double digit rates vs. prior year. However, there are some subcategories which have shown growth or only slight declines — including mirrorless, full-frame interchangeable lens cameras, premium compact cameras and point-of-view camcorders. Ironically, the traditional subcategories still represent the largest unit volumes, but they also show the weakest or negative growth. The emerging subcategories are showing the greatest growth, including, but not limited to, mirrorless, full-frame ILC, premium compact, long-zoom vompact and POV camcorder. It’s been suggested that the double digit declines in conventional DSLR are the result of lack of innovation or any compelling reason to replace or upgrade.

Are folks going to line up to buy an aps-c K-3 replacement? Why?

.
09-29-2014, 08:37 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
And if the brick says, "I want to be the Taj Mahal," and the P&S says, "I want to shoot sports at -1 EV," the architect and photographer will simply do their bidding and make it so.





If Pentax had a new MILC-friendly mount that didn't natively support FF, and were no longer making aps-c DSLR (both like Fuji,) they would probably get a pass too. Pentax has not embraced what many think is the future either way - MILC on lower-mid tier, FF DSLR on mid-upper end. I guess you could categorize the Q as an attempt at some of this, and the K-01, but neither of those really stand up to the competition we've seen from Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus, Sony.

Thus, criticism.

And (digression...) their problem is that it's probably less easy to really embrace a strong MILC solution without ditching K-mount, or shifting resources to another mount that supports large sensors and MILC with a shorter register distance to allow thinner, smaller bodies. So... Does Pentax do that? Or do they double-down on K-mount and offer FF? I don't see how aps-c DSLR sustains them more than 10 (5?) years longer in the face of MILC and lower-cost FF. Remember - past "Pentax is doomed!" exclamations came before we had this MILC and lower-cost FF disruption.

.
I would just say that I think Fuji is a lot better at claiming magical properties for their sensors. X Trans provides better high iso than full frame, etc. I don't know that they actually advertise these things (I don't think they do), but their users throw them around as word of truth. The fact that DXO Mark doesn't test non-Bayer sensors really helps with the smoke screen.

I think Fuji cameras are fine and their lenses are really good, but they haven't really figured out how to pass up full frame sensors through their amazing tech.
09-29-2014, 08:44 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I would just say that I think Fuji is a lot better at claiming magical properties for their sensors. X Trans provides better high iso than full frame, etc. I don't know that they actually advertise these things (I don't think they do), but their users throw them around as word of truth. The fact that DXO Mark doesn't test non-Bayer sensors really helps with the smoke screen.

I think Fuji cameras are fine and their lenses are really good, but they haven't really figured out how to pass up full frame sensors through their amazing tech.
They have results up on IR and places like that that show very little noise - and some obvious, glaring NR artifacts. Thing is, a lot of folks don't notice that and think Fuji has the real deal, which of course can be recreated with a slider pull for any similar-gen m43 or aps-c CMOS sensor.

I actually kinda like Fuji, for what they're trying to be and have become... Even without taking a drink of their Kool-Aide. But they're not making cameras that can match an aps-c DSLRs AF performance (yet**) or really surpass Sony/Exmor aps-c IQ, and they're far short of FF... but they're making semi-cool stuff regardless IMO.

** btw, this is my main reason for not buying into MILC, not the lack of OVF - The low-light AF of every body I've tried is not any better than even my K20D.


Last edited by jsherman999; 09-29-2014 at 09:00 AM.
09-29-2014, 09:51 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
In other words, people are overly fixated on certain paths (be it FF or MILC), not seeing the reality around them (APS-C DSLRs dominating the ILC market) and criticizing Pentax for not fitting on their "Pentax suxx, other brands are better" scenario?

At one point, screw mounts, rangefinders and manual focus dominated the 35mm market. Also, at one point, film cameras dominated the ILC market.
It is a dangerous game to play to base your future on what is the current "norm". You will constantly be playing catch-up.
09-29-2014, 10:24 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
It will always be a sunny day. The storm clouds you see on the horizon will never arrive. Preparing for rain is a foolish waste of time.
If you spend your life preparing, you won't get to accomplish anything Don't worry, I'm safe with my waterproof clothing and weather resistant camera.
Listen to monochrome, he's most likely right. Ricoh Imaging is preparing, in ways that makes sense (but we might not see); but we want them to stop that and launch Sony/Fuji/Nikon copies, at any cost.

QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
At one point, screw mounts, rangefinders and manual focus dominated the 35mm market. Also, at one point, film cameras dominated the ILC market.
It is a dangerous game to play to base your future on what is the current "norm". You will constantly be playing catch-up.
I disagree, mostly because this is not about Pentax remaining a DSLR brand long after DSLRs had died. This is about Pentax taking advantage of the K-mount user base, of the DSLR market size, etc.. This is about their best chance to grow and become again a major camera maker.
Ignore the present, and there won't be any future to build upon.
09-29-2014, 11:06 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
And if the brick says, "I want to be the Taj Mahal," and the P&S says, "I want to shoot sports at -1 EV," the architect and photographer will simply do their bidding and make it so.
True story…ten years ago I was a noob with a Nikon D70. Went to watch the NYC marathon with an old friend that majored in photography in college. He had a crappy P&S. He got better pictures than me.
09-29-2014, 11:29 AM - 2 Likes   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
True story…ten years ago I was a noob with a Nikon D70. Went to watch the NYC marathon with an old friend that majored in photography in college. He had a crappy P&S. He got better pictures than me.
No doubt. I have similar stories..

Now though, a if you were to travel back in time to meet yourself, a 2004-model-P&S-toting-but-modern you could also probably get better shots than the 2004-D70-you, because of your personal progress. But a 2014-K3-you could blow away a 2014-P&S-you.

We need access to a multiverse portal or time machine to verify, but the point is, all else equal, a given photographer will get better results with better tools.



She's waiting for you John. (& she looks steampunk so she'll probably be more impressed with a DSLR)

.

09-30-2014, 08:40 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
We need access to a multiverse portal or time machine to verify, but the point is, all else equal, a given photographer will get better results with better tools.
First of all, we need a definition of what is a "better tool" in this specific subject matter. I guess we all assume that "better" means "full frame compared to APS-c", so lets stick to this concept and do a little brainstorming. It means that we should make our decision in "needing" or "wanting" a ff frame camera instead of an aps-c camera, because we assume ff is better than aps-c, or isn't?.

"All things being equal" for me, it means SAME SPECS. Only difference would be sensor size (and of course, pixel count). Like for example, a K3 with all its bells and whistles but with full frame sensor.

To be "fair" and keep true "equal conditions", lets say that lens availability is identical for both formats. Imagine you are a first time buyer and have nothing to tie you to a certain format (like having only aps-c glass or ff glass before hand).

OK... drum roll please: What would be the decision making fact here?

There has to be "something different" that help us make an objective decision. It could be that there is a price difference either in body or in available accessories.... but ahhh, we said "all things being equal" so its not fair to say one system is more expensive than the other.

C'mon guys... give me a good reason to choose between one system or the other!

For me, such reason relies on "market expectancy and technology trend"

What?

Exacty that; I would make my decision considering what is going on in the market, technology advances and specification trends. I would include under this conditions, as much "related" technical issues involved in image display, storage, usability in a commercial way (now and in the future) and of course, product brand and system back up by the manufacturer.

So, what is my (your choice), aps-c or ff? The better one for my needs, but I guess my needs can be different than yours, so I wouldn't dare to suggest, imply or induce anyone in making decisions based on what I do, neither make my decisions based on what someone else does. In fact, lets answer this question avoiding the "me too" trend.

But... coming down to Earth again, such conditions we know do not exist in a real world. We do know there would be differences in price and in technical specs. For example, talking about technical specs difference that DO EXIST today: What do you want: Full frame or in body Shake Reduction? We do know having both is now not possible, so what do you need most?
09-30-2014, 09:00 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by rburgoss Quote
First of all, we need a definition of what is a "better tool" in this specific subject matter. I guess we all assume that "better" means "full frame compared to APS-c", so lets stick to this concept and do a little brainstorming. It means that we should make our decision in "needing" or "wanting" a ff frame camera instead of an aps-c camera, because we assume ff is better than aps-c, or isn't?.

"All things being equal" for me, it means SAME SPECS. Only difference would be sensor size (and of course, pixel count). Like for example, a K3 with all its bells and whistles but with full frame sensor.

To be "fair" and keep true "equal conditions", lets say that lens availability is identical for both formats. Imagine you are a first time buyer and have nothing to tie you to a certain format (like having only aps-c glass or ff glass before hand).

OK... drum roll please: What would be the decision making fact here?

There has to be "something different" that help us make an objective decision. It could be that there is a price difference either in body or in available accessories.... but ahhh, we said "all things being equal" so its not fair to say one system is more expensive than the other.

C'mon guys... give me a good reason to choose between one system or the other!

For me, such reason relies on "market expectancy and technology trend"

What?

Exacty that; I would make my decision considering what is going on in the market, technology advances and specification trends. I would include under this conditions, as much "related" technical issues involved in image display, storage, usability in a commercial way (now and in the future) and of course, product brand and system back up by the manufacturer.

So, what is my (your choice), aps-c or ff? The better one for my needs, but I guess my needs can be different than yours, so I wouldn't dare to suggest, imply or induce anyone in making decisions based on what I do, neither make my decisions based on what someone else does. In fact, lets answer this question avoiding the "me too" trend.

But... coming down to Earth again, such conditions we know do not exist in a real world. We do know there would be differences in price and in technical specs. For example, talking about technical specs difference that DO EXIST today: What do you want: Full frame or in body Shake Reduction? We do know having both is now not possible, so what do you need most?
Things are rarely either/or,

Another option would be to step out of the matter entirely and buy an M43 kit. Then, after a while, say a year to two, only step back in for a bigger format for those subjects where you know a larger format would make a very distinct difference - landscape, architectural so and so forth, probably most often on a tripod. Either good APS-C or FF sound fine for this to me if base ISO is the preferred weapon. Lenses, yes, but maybe that by stage your larger-format kit would be just a single zoom, say 16-35mm, because you are only using it for specific things. Multi-brand is quite likely the way for a lot of folks now, the camera companies all being hooked on "their" way of doing things whereas folks really prefer their own way of doing things.
09-30-2014, 09:01 AM   #71
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I think one of the biggest presumed benefits of FF over APS would be low light and high ISO performance. The photo sites on a FF sensor would be larger than those on an APS sensor of the same resolution.
09-30-2014, 09:45 AM - 1 Like   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I would just say that I think Fuji is a lot better at claiming magical properties for their sensors. X Trans provides better high iso than full frame, etc. I don't know that they actually advertise these things (I don't think they do), but their users throw them around as word of truth. The fact that DXO Mark doesn't test non-Bayer sensors really helps with the smoke screen.

I think Fuji cameras are fine and their lenses are really good, but they haven't really figured out how to pass up full frame sensors through their amazing tech.
As someone who has owned an X-T1 for about 6 months and a K-5iis, I can say that their performance at ISO 6400 is darn near identical.
Anyone that claims that the X-trans has the same high ISO performance as a similar gen FF sensor is fooling themselves. However, consumers of every brand enjoy the placebo effect, and is not limited to Fuji guys (pixie dust anyone??)
09-30-2014, 12:09 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by rburgoss Quote

"All things being equal" for me, it means SAME SPECS.
Actually in that context (responding to John's example) I was just referring to equal photographic talent, specifically the same person shooting two different cameras would probably consistently get better results from the larger sensor.

Not always, of course, but over 1000's of shots he/she would probably appreciate the difference assuming he/she had the lenses they needed, and that one or the other bodies was at least not 'crippled' in some way for them (ie, "I want to shoot something one-handed while riding a motorcycle" = a 'crippled' scenario for FF or aps-c DSLR, better for MILC - sensor size notwithstanding.)
09-30-2014, 12:46 PM   #74
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A consideration is how many lenses a potential buyer already owns in each format and how conveniently those lenses can be used in each format. Pentax users have an expectation of backward compatibility that I imagine is shared only (somewhat) with Nikon.

We could say Ricoh will release a FF camera when sensor and lens technology have advanced such that legacy K-mount lenses are unsatisfactory compared to new lenses.* And we could say we're probably just about there.


* My Tamron AD-2 SP 90/2.5 Macro 52BB (with case, caps, hood, 1:1 Extension and 2x Converter) is subject to sensor reflection under many common macro lighting conditions. Still one of the best 4 or 5 100ish Macro's, but a chore to use these days, rather than a pleasure.
09-30-2014, 01:16 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Actually in that context (responding to John's example) I was just referring to equal photographic talent, specifically the same person shooting two different cameras would probably consistently get better results from the larger sensor.
To bring it back a little to the OP's original point - better results are not always discernible on a small smartphone screen or tablet, the viewing platform of the modern age. I'm working on an ebook with pictures, for example. Shots are split 80/20 between the K-3 and Q. All shots scaled down to 2048 pickles wide for iPad consumption. So I'm taking 24 megapickle and 12 megapickle images and scaling them down to 2 megapickles. I did a digital mag where most of the photos were taken with a Panasonic LX-7. For my uses the pickles don't matter and the photojournalist/travel style that I shoot favors shots with context, thus the greater DOF of smaller sensors actually works to my advantage. I could use increased low-light/high-iso from time to time, and that's why the K-3 continues to get taken along. But for most of my needs, a camera like the Sony RX100 III or Panny LX100 is all I need. Want is another thing, of course. I want the 645Z.

QuoteQuote:
Not always, of course, but over 1000's of shots he/she would probably appreciate the difference assuming he/she had the lenses they needed, and that one or the other bodies was at least not 'crippled' in some way for them (ie, "I want to shoot something one-handed while riding a motorcycle" = a 'crippled' scenario for FF or aps-c DSLR, better for MILC - sensor size notwithstanding.)
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