[rburgoss]

ElJamoquio said: Purple.




I'm sorry. Since English is not my native language, I don't know what the "purple" comment means. I tried to digg into my limited slang, coloquial of otherwise "non Shakespearean" English and did not found a significant meaning that could be related to my post, as compliment, mock, insult, support or whatever connection there may be.

So, may I kindly ask you to elaborate?


"I'm in the dark here!" (Al Pacino in Scent of a Woman)

[monochrome]

So let me get this straight, you want Pentax to chase Canon, Sony, and Nikon on Amazon's best seller list? Those companies that you envy so much are hemorrhaging profits, losing money hand over fist, while Ricoh's smaller volume niche strategy has returned Pentax to profitability.

In what fantasy business world does that make any sense whatsoever?

Canon and Nikon, at least (and maybe Sony and probably Samsung now, too) built out production facilities worth hundreds of millions of dollars to support peak volume production. To carry peak volume Canon and Nikon, at least, spend hundreds of millions of dollars in various advertising, marketing and support functions globally.

That all works for a profit (at a small margin) as long as volume stays at or near peak levels. But if sales volume declines below the cost of carry on production facilities + marketing expense -- then what?

Whereas Ricoh seems set up to make a profit on short, small production runs of cameras and lenses. There isn't enough Revenue to support all the marketing expense, nor volume to justify expanding manufacturing facilities dramatically (at this time). So once in a while a 645Z comes along that taxes capacity - and maybe there are some lost opportunity sales - so what?

In fact, we don't pay peak production model costs when we buy our Pentax gear, so we get more features and better designs at a price point than Canon and Nikon (at least) buyers - but we're sort of lonely because we don't get the brand identity and group association benefit Canon and Nikon buyers get.

I am continually surprised that members compare Pentax to Canon and Nikon (and Sony) and find Pentax lacking; that members want Pentax to compete with the big two (+ one), and Pentax must do this or have that to compete or they'll be doomed. Pentax doesn't actually want to compete with Canon and Nikon - it is just too expensive. When will people learn to appreciate the difference as a good thing and start celebrating it?

There is a dissonance between what members say they want and the brand they have chosen, I think.

[ElJamoquio]

so let me get this straight, you want pentax to chase canon, sony, and nikon on amazon's best seller list? Those companies that you envy so much are hemorrhaging profits, losing money hand over fist, while ricoh's smaller volume niche strategy has returned pentax to profitability.

In what fantasy business world does that make any sense whatsoever?

12:30 pm.

---------- Post added 10-01-14 at 07:53 PM ----------

ElJamoquio said: Purple.




I'm sorry. Since English is not my native language, I don't know what the "purple" comment means. I tried to digg into my limited slang, coloquial of otherwise "non Shakespearean" English and did not found a significant meaning that could be related to my post, as compliment, mock, insult, support or whatever connection there may be.

So, may I kindly ask you to elaborate?


"I'm in the dark here!" (Al Pacino in Scent of a Woman)

Sorry! My apologies. People were removing context and intent, and replying to an imagined-extrapolation-of-what-I-actually-said.

It was nonsensical to me so I continued the trend.

[rburgoss]

12:30 pm.

---------- Post added 10-01-14 at 07:53 PM ----------



Sorry! My apologies. People were removing context and intent, and replying to an imagined-extrapolation-of-what-I-actually-said.

It was nonsensical to me so I continued the trend.

I get it. Someone was talking about fantasy worlds; you guessed it was purple. OK, point taken. No problem, but I'd like to express a little comment on monochrome's last post.

He remarks that some Pentax users (here) are too obsessed with what Nikon, Canon an other offer and maybe this guys are using the wrong brand for their expectations. (He probably didn't use exactly this words, but the message is very similar).

So, giving this remark an extra thought; I couldn't agree more with monochrome' comment. It reminded me about this guy, an American (US) that after retirement, moved to Costa Rica. I met him and we made a nice friendship, but after a few months, every time we met for coffee or whatever, he started complaining about all the bad things in this country, that "never" happened where he lived in California. Burocrats, product availability, government employees, gas stations, drugstores, etc. It came a day where everything was bad or wrong. There was nothing good... so I asked him: If you believe and think this country is such a piece of crap... what keeps you from going back to your heaven perfect California?

He replied: "because with my pension income, I will starve to death and could not pay rent for a decent place in a nice neighborhood". So I said to him. The day that you learn to be happy with what you have and stop complaining about what you don't have, you'll find that life is not as miserable as you think.

Without saying a word, he stood up and walked away. That was the last time I saw him. About 8 years later, he was found dead at his house in San Jose, Costa Rica, after some neighbors reported some foul odors coming out that house. According to the police reports, he died of natural causes about two weeks before he was found. (He was 77 at time of death and smoked three packs a day till the day he kicked the bucket).

Back to Pentax, I dare to ask to all those who praise and crave for what Nikon, Canon or any other offers: What is keeping you from switching brands? What keeps you tied up to Pentax?

For me, its been long enough that I've learned to be happy with what I have and stopped suffering for what I don't. Perhaps it takes a few "near death experiences" to learn that life is too short and too precious, that is not worth loosing a single minute bitching about anything or anyone. If something bugs me and I can fix it, the I do so and the problem dissappears; if I can't fix it, then is not my problem.

[mecrox]

I know your D600 isn't "professional," therefore it isn't the sensor that makes a camera a professional model. It is the specifications, build and support offered for a given model. I think Canon is now releasing a pro-specified 7D Mk II, while Nikon is deliberately avoiding releasing a D400. Clearly, Canon and Nikon have a lot invested in making sure that full frame is viewed as professional. Their most expensive gear is in this category, why wouldn't they want to sell as much of that as possible? I just happen to think that if camera companies choose to release high spec APS-C cameras, they sell bunches of them -- to amateurs and to professionals who aren't fixed on a given sensor size.

Canon and Nikon have a fairly narrow definition of professional, though Canon's is the more catholic. The equipment which qualifies for this moniker in their opinion can be found under various links here and here (for the UK, it seems to vary a bit elsewhere). It's a fairly narrow definition of professional because it means someone who uses FF DSLRs for the most part, though a few APS-C models are in their lists. And since the companies are Canon and Nikon, that means FF rooted in the old traditions of PJ, sports and the like, no doubt George Clooney's wedding too. Sony is really all about the use of video/film.

There is a festival of photography on in Oxford at the moment. Two of the standout exhibitions are by photographers who do not use Canon or Nikon equipment. Both seem to prefer film or at least did prefer it for most of the work on show. One often uses a panoramic camera and one clearly uses an MF or larger film camera. One of them is a much-loved photographer of world renown. Ideas about "professional" simply collapse at this point. The Canonikon "professionals" are all in the World Press Photo Awards 2014 exhibition at Brookes Uni here and very fine they are too, but it is only one kind of photography on one kind of equipment. And, one imagines, some of the award-winners were using what their companies gave them for the assignment. Professional is likely bound up with corporate bulk-buying programmes too. There again, there is the landscape crowd and the large, high-quality art/gallery print business which seems pretty popular in some places. Canonikon in there are rivalled by other formats (notably MF) some still film-based, one imagines.

Mostly when I see "professional" it is used in camera magazines to belittle and patronize people and make them feel insecure and unhappy. It's all about money and encouraging people to get into debt. I hate it.

That said, Pentax still badly needs an FF, imho. Nothing to do with professional at all. They are not really in that business; if they were, they would be promoting themselves as a brand for professionals, but they don't. But it is what an increasing number of people would like to use.

[Rondec]

Canon and Nikon have a fairly narrow definition of professional, though Canon's is the more catholic. The equipment which qualifies for this moniker in their opinion can be found under various links here and here (for the UK, it seems to vary a bit elsewhere). It's a fairly narrow definition of professional because it means someone who uses FF DSLRs for the most part, though a few APS-C models are in their lists. And since the companies are Canon and Nikon, that means FF rooted in the old traditions of PJ, sports and the like, no doubt George Clooney's wedding too. Sony is really all about the use of video/film.

There is a festival of photography on in Oxford at the moment. Two of the standout exhibitions are by photographers who do not use Canon or Nikon equipment. Both seem to prefer film or at least did prefer it for most of the work on show. One often uses a panoramic camera and one clearly uses an MF or larger film camera. One of them is a much-loved photographer of world renown. Ideas about "professional" simply collapse at this point. The Canonikon "professionals" are all in the World Press Photo Awards 2014 exhibition at Brookes Uni here and very fine they are too, but it is only one kind of photography on one kind of equipment. And, one imagines, some of the award-winners were using what their companies gave them for the assignment. Professional is likely bound up with corporate bulk-buying programmes too. There again, there is the landscape crowd and the large, high-quality art/gallery print business which seems pretty popular in some places. Canonikon in there are rivalled by other formats (notably MF) some still film-based, one imagines.

Mostly when I see "professional" it is used in camera magazines to belittle and patronize people and make them feel insecure and unhappy. It's all about money and encouraging people to get into debt. I hate it.

That said, Pentax still badly needs an FF, imho. Nothing to do with professional at all. They are not really in that business; if they were, they would be promoting themselves as a brand for professionals, but they don't. But it is what an increasingly number of people would like to use.

I think Pentax needs full frame as long as they can do it right -- have some features at a price point that is attractive to buyers. For some reason, I see frequently the idea of them releasing "a K3 body with a full frame sensor." I just don't see this as working. They need an auto focus module that will actually cover most of the sensor, they probably need SR on the sensor, and most of all they need to be able to sell the cameras they make for a profit.

As long as those things are taken care of, they will release a full frame camera -- probably in the spring. But just slapping a bigger sensor in a small camera body isn't their way.

[rburgoss]

I think Pentax needs full frame as long as they can do it right -- have some features at a price point that is attractive to buyers. For some reason, I see frequently the idea of them releasing "a K3 body with a full frame sensor." I just don't see this as working. They need an auto focus module that will actually cover most of the sensor, they probably need SR on the sensor, and most of all they need to be able to sell the cameras they make for a profit.

As long as those things are taken care of, they will release a full frame camera -- probably in the spring. But just slapping a bigger sensor in a small camera body isn't their way.

I do admit I've mentioned "K3 with full frame...", but please, don't get me wrong. I do know its not possible. My remark is a methaphoric expression, as in "a K3 similarly featured ff body..." and BTW, please Pentax, throw in built in wi-fi via "Direct WI-FI" (no need for wireless network availability) with web browser controlled software that allows full camera tethering and selectable "on demand" file exchange. Of course, the wi-fi range should be increased to at least 50 to 80 feet (indoors). Did I mentioned we would like this nice package for under $1,500?

Ahhhhh! That's the beauty of dreaming! As long as you know its only dreamIng, no one can point fingers at you. Who on Earth has the moral authority or wisdom that gives him the right to question or to impose his beliefs over yours?

[Poit]

I think Pentax needs full frame as long as they can do it right -- have some features at a price point that is attractive to buyers. For some reason, I see frequently the idea of them releasing "a K3 body with a full frame sensor." I just don't see this as working. They need an auto focus module that will actually cover most of the sensor, they probably need SR on the sensor, and most of all they need to be able to sell the cameras they make for a profit.

As long as those things are taken care of, they will release a full frame camera -- probably in the spring. But just slapping a bigger sensor in a small camera body isn't their way.

I do admit I've mentioned "K3 with full frame...", but please, don't get me wrong. I do know its not possible. My remark is a methaphoric expression, as in "a K3 similarly featured ff body..." and BTW, please Pentax, throw in built in wi-fi via "Direct WI-FI" (no need for wireless network availability) with web browser controlled software that allows full camera tethering and selectable "on demand" file exchange. Of course, the wi-fi range should be increased to at least 50 to 80 feet (indoors). Did I mentioned we would like this nice package for under $1,500?

Ahhhhh! That's the beauty of dreaming! As long as you know its only dreamIng, no one can point fingers at you. Who on Earth has the moral authority or wisdom that gives him the right to question or to impose his beliefs over yours?

I agree with rburgoss on the "k-3 body" thing.

Asahi Man has frequently referred to a K-3 style body (read similar build quality etc) but has expressly stated that it won't be a K-3 body (based on a prototype he claims to have seen several months ago). Apparently it uses parts common to the K-3, but is a bit taller. It also has IBIS, and 24MP Sony sensor. No comments made about the AF module, though. Price-point circa $2,500.

Mayhaps a flippy screen and built in wifi (this is my conjecture now, based on recent products they've released).

I would be quite happy with a FF camera that has those specs, and it's a perfectly reasonable / achievable product for Pentax to roll out I think (although they're probably a bit peeved that Nikon stole their thunder with the D750, so maybe a rethink on some of the specs?)

---------- Post added 10-03-14 at 10:40 AM ----------

That said, Pentax still badly needs an FF, imho. Nothing to do with professional at all. They are not really in that business; if they were, they would be promoting themselves as a brand for professionals, but they don't. But it is what an increasing number of people would like to use.

Actually, they have started pushing the 'professional' line in the past 12 months. The 645z was marketed directly as a 'pro' tool, and their Photokina stand had a section devoted to 'Work' (which consisted solely of 645z products at this stage), so they are certainly trying to pitch themselves as a brand for professionals now as well (as I think they should).

It's reasonable to assume that the 'Work' section at future exhibitions will include FF products.

[mecrox]

Actually, they have started pushing the 'professional' line in the past 12 months. The 645z was marketed directly as a 'pro' tool, and their Photokina stand had a section devoted to 'Work' (which consisted solely of 645z products at this stage), so they are certainly trying to pitch themselves as a brand for professionals now as well (as I think they should).

It's reasonable to assume that the 'Work' section at future exhibitions will include FF products.

Interesting, in which case I take it back. I wonder how serious they are about this. The local website in the eu for Pentax generally or the subsite for the 645z mentions nothing about pro stuff so far as I can tell. And there's no mention of a professional membership programme (although I know they are said to have one). The accent on the 645 pages, for example, is about image quality and craftsmanship. I guess there may be stuff about pros somewhere but if so there is they are hiding it rather well. Maybe it's a new idea that they'll roll out around the world and their various websites in due course.

I don't really see a happy ending if Ricoh try to protect their APS-C lines by pricing any FF scorchingly high on the grounds they class FF as "for work". A glance at Flickr would show that idea died a while ago now with cameras like the 6D, the D600/610 and the A7. Work would be a D4 or a 1DX, I'd guess, but everything else now is really play, some specifically so. There might be rather few takers for a "work" camera costing $$$, with those holding a lot of legacy lenses opting for an A7R on the grounds that the price differential is simply too large. One issue not often mentioned is that Pentax manufacture their products in SE Asia, don't they? My impression is that for ultimate cachet on the expensive stuff, "Made in Japan" is a pretty important thing to say. Canon always stress this, for example. FWIW, so do Sigma. Do Ricoh/Pentax still produce things in Japan?

[Rondec]

Interesting, in which case I take it back. I wonder how serious they are about this. The local website in the eu for Pentax generally or the subsite for the 645z mentions nothing about pro stuff so far as I can tell. And there's no mention of a professional membership programme (although I know they are said to have one). The accent on the 645 pages, for example, is about image quality and craftsmanship. I guess there may be stuff about pros somewhere but if so there is they are hiding it rather well. Maybe it's a new idea that they'll roll out around the world and their various websites in due course.

I don't really see a happy ending if Ricoh try to protect their APS-C lines by pricing any FF scorchingly high on the grounds they class FF as "for work". A glance at Flickr would show that idea died a while ago now with cameras like the 6D, the D600/610 and the A7. Work would be a D4 or a 1DX, I'd guess, but everything else now is really play, some specifically so. There might be rather few takers for a "work" camera costing $$$, with those holding a lot of legacy lenses opting for an A7R on the grounds that the price differential is simply too large. One issue not often mentioned is that Pentax manufacture their products in SE Asia, don't they? My impression is that for ultimate cachet on the expensive stuff, "Made in Japan" is a pretty important thing to say. Canon always stress this, for example. FWIW, so do Sigma. Do Ricoh/Pentax still produce things in Japan?

I don't think Pentax will try to price their camera "scorchingly high," but I think they will deliberately avoid the "entry level" full frame area where the D610 and 6D live and peg their camera to just below D800 level. As long as specs are there it will be fine. Most people will still buy APS-C. Most won't move up. But knowing that there is such a camera available will give some comfort to people who see Pentax as having "no future." In addition, Pentax will sell more lenses, as plenty of APS-C users would buy Pentax DFA zooms if available (once again, assuming decent in lens motors).

Oh well, this reading the tea leaves is too much for me.

[Poit]

Interesting, in which case I take it back. I wonder how serious they are about this. The local website in the eu for Pentax generally or the subsite for the 645z mentions nothing about pro stuff so far as I can tell. And there's no mention of a professional membership programme (although I know they are said to have one). The accent on the 645 pages, for example, is about image quality and craftsmanship. I guess there may be stuff about pros somewhere but if so there is they are hiding it rather well. Maybe it's a new idea that they'll roll out around the world and their various websites in due course.

I don't really see a happy ending if Ricoh try to protect their APS-C lines by pricing any FF scorchingly high on the grounds they class FF as "for work". A glance at Flickr would show that idea died a while ago now with cameras like the 6D, the D600/610 and the A7. Work would be a D4 or a 1DX, I'd guess, but everything else now is really play, some specifically so. There might be rather few takers for a "work" camera costing $$$, with those holding a lot of legacy lenses opting for an A7R on the grounds that the price differential is simply too large. One issue not often mentioned is that Pentax manufacture their products in SE Asia, don't they? My impression is that for ultimate cachet on the expensive stuff, "Made in Japan" is a pretty important thing to say. Canon always stress this, for example. FWIW, so do Sigma. Do Ricoh/Pentax still produce things in Japan?

The description of the 645z on Ricoh Imaging (USA) and Pentax Australia websites reads as follows:

Experience the distinct perspective of medium format photography with the unique 645Z. The 645Z seamlessly combines brilliant build quality, exceptional operability and hyper resolution with 51.4 million effective pixels. Designed to meet the needs of a wide range of professional photographers, the 645Z offers class leading speed and response with 3 frames per second continuous shooting and fast image review and transfer. Experience your photographs first hand with the high-resolution, tiltable 3.2 inch, LCD monitor. The 645Z allows the capture of beautiful, full HD movies and 4K Interval shooting. Take your photography, from the field to the commercial studio, to the next level with the distinctly brilliant PENTAX 645Z from Ricoh Imaging

It's right there, in plain view, not hidden at all. This camera was designed for and is targeted at professionals. I think they're very serious about targeting that market, and so they should be. By all accounts, they've been very successful with it too, which is fabulous. Bring it on and well done them

I personally believe there is a market for a line between the enthusiast APS-C and the 'pro' MF range. The suggested price point ($2,500) with lenses around the $2,000 mark would not be 'scorchingly high', and would attract many (myself included) who want the improvements a larger sensor would offer, without the cost or size of a MF. Some possible / probable buyers would include wedding shooters (like myself), event shooters, sport shooters, up-and-comers (people who recently turned pro), part-timers / semi-pros who want the best they can get without spending MF (or 1DX/D4S) prices, and even students who are serious.

A camera in a similar class to the D800, for around $2,500, could easily be marketed as a 'work' camera, and would be a very attractive proposition to many...I think it'll do great (as long as they get the lenses right, like Rondec says).

[mecrox]

The description of the 645z on Ricoh Imaging (USA) and Pentax Australia websites reads as follows:

Experience the distinct perspective of medium format photography with the unique 645Z. The 645Z seamlessly combines brilliant build quality, exceptional operability and hyper resolution with 51.4 million effective pixels. Designed to meet the needs of a wide range of professional photographers, the 645Z offers class leading speed and response with 3 frames per second continuous shooting and fast image review and transfer. Experience your photographs first hand with the high-resolution, tiltable 3.2 inch, LCD monitor. The 645Z allows the capture of beautiful, full HD movies and 4K Interval shooting. Take your photography, from the field to the commercial studio, to the next level with the distinctly brilliant PENTAX 645Z from Ricoh Imaging

It's right there, in plain view, not hidden at all. This camera was designed for and is targeted at professionals. I think they're very serious about targeting that market, and so they should be. By all accounts, they've been very successful with it too, which is fabulous. Bring it on and well done them

I personally believe there is a market for a line between the enthusiast APS-C and the 'pro' MF range. The suggested price point ($2,500) with lenses around the $2,000 mark would not be 'scorchingly high', and would attract many (myself included) who want the improvements a larger sensor would offer, without the cost or size of a MF. Some possible / probable buyers would include wedding shooters (like myself), event shooters, sport shooters, up-and-comers (people who recently turned pro), part-timers / semi-pros who want the best they can get without spending MF (or 1DX/D4S) prices, and even students who are serious.

A camera in a similar class to the D800, for around $2,500, could easily be marketed as a 'work' camera, and would be a very attractive proposition to many...I think it'll do great (as long as they get the lenses right, like Rondec says).

That wasn't what I meant. Words are cheap. Plenty of products are sold with the idea of "professional "involved. I am sure that someone, somewhere will sell you a "professional" kettle. But in terms of actual support on the ground, now, well there doesn't seem to be any. Pentax do not have the kind of membership and support network for professional photographers that Canon and Nikon have with their swap-out facilities, repair and replacement stuff and all the rest. Perhaps they do all of this in Japan, but I don't live in Japan.

I hope Pentax won't market a $2500 camera as a "work camera". What would be the point since it almost certainly wouldn't be that, not really. What would be specifically work-oriented about it that other, similar cameras did not have? Any camera can be classed as a work camera, after all, even an iPhone.

If terms like work and professional are to mean anything, then presumably you need a network on the ground and you need solid, extra features on your products beyond those on regular consumer items (which the 645z is clearly not). "Work" here could mean things like an overhauled and sophisticated flash system which Just Works (TM) and lenses which aren't in the normal line of consumer products, like a modern tilt-shift or more than one of them. AF to match the best from Canonikon? Not right now. Sure, Ricoh could do all of this on any FF camera, right down to $1000 wifi transmitters. But there isn't really any evidence of it so far; and what one hears, at least on here, is that keeping investment levels pretty low is an important part of the plan. So where's the money for all this going to come from? Support networks are a huge expense. I suspect this is jumping the gun a bit. With any FF in the near future, it could be more likely that Ricoh will target rich gents and use professional in the marketing copy by alluding to things shared with the 645z. Cynical perhaps, but look at the present situation as it is. Some professional folk may pick up on that and use Pentax cameras in their work, much as they might use a Fuji one now or a Pentax K3 or any other camera, but there is a lot of different between that and the kind of programmes for professionals operated by Canonikon.

I'm biased, however. With the exception of a couple of items like the 1DX or the D4s and some clearly specialist lenses and accessories, I suspect that much of the whole work/professional thing has become largely meaningless and in some cases an actual turn-off if folks start taking it to mean huge, complex and unnecessarily expensive (on FF and below, not MF). Take the new D750. Work or play? It could be either or both. Nikon say that it is "packed with professional imaging technology" - words are free - but they also say "Free your vision with the fast, versatile, and agile D750. In a world where anything is possible, this full-frame 24.3-megapixel powerhouse gives you the freedom to dare." That sentence is not really aimed at ye olde pro. Go just for one market and you risk missing the other.

[Poit]

I guess it comes down to one's definition of 'professional' or 'work', really.

If that entails comprehensive support networks and programmes, as you suggest, then sure, they are a long way off being a 'professional' maker.

If you take a more broad view: the use of equipment to earn money or make a living, then the range of equipment that could be classed as appropriate for work purposes increases substantially. Not everyone wants or needs a comprehensive support network, so to suggest that it is required before your equipment can be classed as 'professional' is somewhat narrow-minded. Like I said, there are many who make money from their equipment (call it 'pro' or 'work' or whatever) who would be attracted to a $2,500 D800-class FF camera.

Either way, Ricoh seem to believe they are making 'professional' products, and from the buzz I've read about the 645z they have been entirely justified in doing so (support network or no). Their response to comments about flash-sync (the imminent release of leaf-shutter lenses) also suggests they are quite serious about appealing to that market, and not just pitching to 'rich gentlemen'.

[monochrome]

But in terms of actual support on the ground, now, well there doesn't seem to be any. Pentax do not have the kind of membership and support network for professional photographers that Canon and Nikon have with their swap-out facilities, repair and replacement stuff and all the rest. Perhaps they do all of this in Japan, but I don't live in Japan.

Yes, Japan - but it is there. We only got US Distribution of 645 lenses in the last six months - and that only because Imaging Resource (or was it Adam?) asked the question in their interview.