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View Poll Results: Will the Pentax Full Frame K-mount camera show up at the 2016 Photokina?
Yes 5140.16%
No 7659.84%
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09-28-2014, 04:56 PM   #31
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If $8k is unlikely for Pentax FF, $20k on Pentax MF must've flown out the window...

09-28-2014, 05:01 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
If $8k is unlikely for Pentax FF, $20k on Pentax MF must've flown out the window...
Different market. 645D went first to a lot of Japanese customers that owned lots of lenses for the 645 system. Professional studio use with 645D and 645Z is different. Some may only buy 645z with 55mm and 90mm lens and nothing else. They don't need anything else. There is still a market in advertising- and fashion photography.
09-28-2014, 05:20 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Different market. 645D went first to a lot of Japanese customers that owned lots of lenses for the 645 system. Professional studio use with 645D and 645Z is different. Some may only buy 645z with 55mm and 90mm lens and nothing else. They don't need anything else. There is still a market in advertising- and fashion photography.
You don't think people own a lot of lenses for Pentax FF?
09-28-2014, 07:20 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
You don't think people own a lot of lenses for Pentax FF?
Exactly. Many people here will probably be able to get by initially just buying body only, and perhaps the new kit lens or a new prime if they seem OK.

Like the introduction of Sony's FF, or the 645Z, or Fujifilm's stuff, the whole Pentax FF lens ensemble isn't likely to arrive all at once on launch day. So any expected total customer spend will probably ramp up over some time, if the products are any good.

There are also plenty of new and very decent FF lens options from Sigma etc out there to help new Pentaxians manage the cost of assembling a Pentax FF package. That wasn't an option available with the 645D/Z.

09-29-2014, 01:48 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
You don't think people own a lot of lenses for Pentax FF?
Lol, so you don't think a Pentax FF will be bought by anyone who does not already have a lot of Pentax lenses?

The (few) comments coming from Ricoh suggest they are see themselves now as a premium brand targeting niches. Many folks are more in the line of generalists. Perhaps most are. If Pentax announce a premium camera aimed at a niche, one can see the mismatch here. A 36mpx/f2.8 zoom is niche, for those who want ultimate IQ and are prepared to pay for it; a 22-24mpx/f4 zoom is generalist, being smaller, lighter and usually a lot less costly for example. Convenience wins again? That's what Canon would say. Not everyone who owns some Pentax FF-capable lenses is going to buy just any Pentax FF camera. If it doesn't fit with their kind of photography, why should they?

There's another thing: mirrorless. Both Canon and Nikon have been talking about that lately in terms which suggest they see it at least as an option for high-end cameras. Canon's boss has even talked about it "soon". 36-54 mpx shooters, for example - no mirror slap, lighter body, likely quality video a lot easier with the mirror out of the way, ditto AF if it is on-sensor, excellent live view on a tripod and so forth. Just as Canon and Nikon are easing their high-end niche users into a new, high-mpx mirrorless body sometime in 2015, Pentax come out with a conventional high-mpx DSLR with a DSLR's wonky live view and maybe wonky video too which is instantly rendered at least a generation out of date although it's aimed at the same kind of folks. There are a lot of complicated chess moves here. Very risky all round, imho.

Last edited by mecrox; 09-29-2014 at 05:58 AM.
09-29-2014, 07:19 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
You don't think people own a lot of lenses for Pentax FF?
QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Exactly. Many people here will probably be able to get by initially just buying body only, and perhaps the new kit lens or a new prime if they seem OK.
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Lol, so you don't think a Pentax FF will be bought by anyone who does not already have a lot of Pentax lenses?

The (few) comments coming from Ricoh suggest they are see themselves now as a premium brand targeting niches. Many folks are more in the line of generalists. Perhaps most are. If Pentax announce a premium camera aimed at a niche, one can see the mismatch here. A 36mpx/f2.8 zoom is niche, for those who want ultimate IQ and are prepared to pay for it; a 22-24mpx/f4 zoom is generalist, being smaller, lighter and usually a lot less costly for example. Convenience wins again? That's what Canon would say. Not everyone who owns some Pentax FF-capable lenses is going to buy just any Pentax FF camera. If it doesn't fit with their kind of photography, why should they?

Yes I do think and know a lot of people have Full Frame lenses at home. Some just stored while now using a different brand and some just in use with aps-c camera's. I think this is all about matching. Coming at the same place where people with lenses would want to make the step and buy a FF K-mount camera.

So with a camera body prized in the range up to 1999 euro (you can have A7, 6D (1579 euro), D610 (1599 euro), A7R and SLT-A99V) the market is bigger then with prices higher then that. So you have those F, FA, M and K lenses and for say 1599 euro you can have the matching 24 megapixel FF K-mount camerabody. That is a great deal to me.

When the pricerange goes up to 2699 euro, then you have more choices (in this range overhere D750, D800, A7s, Df and 5D Mark III) since you could buy an expensive camera from Ricoh with K-mount. But you could also sell you stocked lenses and buy a cheaper FF from the competition with some new lenses.

Beyond that price point I don't see any sales materializing anymore.

Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 09-29-2014 at 07:35 AM.
09-29-2014, 09:29 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Lol, so you don't think a Pentax FF will be bought by anyone who does not already have a lot of Pentax lenses?
"lol", do you think the 645 was bought by anyone who didn't have Pentax 645 lenses?
09-29-2014, 03:12 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Exactly. Many people here will probably be able to get by initially just buying body only, and perhaps the new kit lens or a new prime if they seem OK.

Like the introduction of Sony's FF, or the 645Z, or Fujifilm's stuff, the whole Pentax FF lens ensemble isn't likely to arrive all at once on launch day. So any expected total customer spend will probably ramp up over some time, if the products are any good.

There are also plenty of new and very decent FF lens options from Sigma etc out there to help new Pentaxians manage the cost of assembling a Pentax FF package. That wasn't an option available with the 645D/Z.
I have only purchased FF K-mount lenses simply because of this. I have been holding off on purchasing the 77mm until I see updated lenses with HD coating and faster AF. An updated version of the 77mm and might even sell my Sigma 85mm.

09-30-2014, 05:57 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Na Horuk Quote
In 2016 Pentax will be almost ready, but will have to put the plans on hold because of another takeover, this time by Toyota. Then, understandably, it will take a couple years to get everything in order. So in 2020 they will probably start the market research on the feasibility of a full frame camera
You may expect a FF Parking camera then !!!
09-30-2014, 06:18 AM   #40
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It may be a silly question, but could Sony 'cut down' the existing 645Z sensor from 33 x 44 to 24 x 36, giving you roughly a ~30mp sensor (if my sums are correct) with the same DR, Low Noise etc from the 645Z but with a lower overall image size output?
Is that even remotely possible? Then you could have 24mp APS-C, 30mp FF and 51mp 645......
09-30-2014, 06:39 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by hoopsontoast Quote
It may be a silly question, but could Sony 'cut down' the existing 645Z sensor from 33 x 44 to 24 x 36, giving you roughly a ~30mp sensor (if my sums are correct) with the same DR, Low Noise etc from the 645Z but with a lower overall image size output?
Is that even remotely possible? Then you could have 24mp APS-C, 30mp FF and 51mp 645......
One of the discussions about having a custom made sensor. Many think that is to expensive. I think, that should be no problem.

pixelssize is 5,3x5,3 micron so on Full Frame you will get 30,7 megapixel and on aps-c you get 13 megapixel. (some know I would order a 20 megapixel aps-h sensor )
09-30-2014, 04:29 PM   #42
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Why don't we all just wait and see. I think it is pretty well understood now that Ricoh releases something FF in the next 9 months.

My guess is they position Pentax Premium (dedicated FF, 645) for the gap between Nikon and Leica and position APSc as the gateway system. High-end APSc gets basically the Premium technology on the next APSC flagship rollout plus the HD DA Limited and DA Pro lenses. The K-Sx line gets the consumer primes and a few consumer zooms.

If they do brand-identity marketing it will be on making better images, complete with on-line tutorials and lens selection guidance.

A Camera System for the discerning photographer.
10-16-2014, 11:39 AM   #43
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2015 is the year it will happen.
10-16-2014, 01:53 PM - 1 Like   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by hoopsontoast Quote
It may be a silly question, but could Sony 'cut down' the existing 645Z sensor from 33 x 44 to 24 x 36, giving you roughly a ~30mp sensor
My modest product suggestion to Ricoh would be to keep the existing 654Z sensor die size (32.8 x 43.8 mm) and Sony sensor tech but make a 654Z that is 24MP only, maybe even just 16MP. That way the camera would have a pixel size perhaps two or three times the size of the current 645Z (which is 5.3 micron pixel size).

Compared to the Sony A7s, which has a pixel size of 8.3 microns, a 16MP 645Zs would then have a pixel size of perhaps 15 microns, which would give you a true low-light monster. ISO latitude: 50 - 1 million

Plus the fps and general camera responsiveness would be awesome, since the 654Zs electronics would only have a third or half of the pixels to push around compared to a normal 645Z.
12-02-2014, 02:22 PM   #45
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I suppose I will be fullframe by 2016, not sure about Pentax :-)
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