Originally posted by clackers Again, if you're fixated by the light part of the signal-noise ratio, but not the equally important noise component, you're going to struggle to explain this:
My dear Clackers, I'm going to forgive you some of this because you barged into the discussion relatively late.
Here:
Overall image noise can be broken down into photon shot noise + read noise.
Shot noise is largely determined by the Total Light. Read noise is largely determined by sensor efficiency, and is seen more in lower light shooting in which image brightening (ie ISO bump) is used.
The Canon 5D vs. K5 (or K3) is a perfect example of an older, less efficient pixel technology (5D) going up against a newer one (Sony Exmor/K5). As DXO shows, even though the Canon has an older, less efficient sensor, it still slightly surpasses the K5 in noise control.
How can it do this if the sensor is worse?
Because the ground it loses in Read noise (caused by lower sensor efficiency) is made up for with less shot noise (caused by more total light.)
Get it?
Now, take a look at something like the D700 vs. K5 - again, an older, less efficient pixel technology in the D700, but it's more efficient than the Canon 5D - so the D700, despite being a worse sensor tech than k5, still has about a stop more noise peformance over the K5. Why? Total light.
The variance here in these sensors is the underlying pixel tech - the constant is the amount of total light they see for the same exposure. So because of this you see, at his point in time AFAIK, *any* FF sensor of any age beating *any* aps-c sensor of any age due to that FF sensor getting more Total Light.
How much it beats the aps-c sensor depends on how close in pixel tech the two sensors are. And you also see some of the newer sensors beating the older in DR at base ISO (like K5 vs. D700 or 5D)
Does this clear things up for you? I'm hitting a personal articulation limit where I don't know if I can explain it any more clearly.
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---------- Post added 10-16-14 at 09:56 AM ----------
Originally posted by Dartmoor Dave So, to summarise the "Total Light" hypothesis:
"Total Light" is the only factor responsible for noise in a digital camera.
Absolutely false.
DD, is that the message you're getting from these threads? Are you actually
reading the posts I and others make? Have you followed any external links to source material?
Quote: All the other factors that can generate noise in the camera's electronics are irrelevant, because they contradict "Total Light".
Therefore, "Total Light" is the only factor responsible for noise in a digital camera.
Either you're not reading carefully or you're constructing straw-men for your own benefit. C'mon.
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---------- Post added 10-16-14 at 10:02 AM ----------
Originally posted by Dartmoor Dave Anyway, I'll bow out of this now.
I'd encourage you to follow it if not participate.
Quote: I've clearly failed to grasp something fundamental about "Total Light",
You have, but you're not alone.
Quote: but since it seems to have absolutely zero useful application in real-world photography I've decided to stop worrying about it.
It establishes the main reason
why you might want to shoot with a larger sensor in the first place - larger, as in aps-c vs point and shoot for example - but aside fro that I guess it's unimportant.
Truthfully, you don't have to worry about it at all if you only plan to shoot one format anyway. Some of like to understand stuff though, especially if such understanding can help manage expectations and end up saving us money!