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10-18-2014, 02:11 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
What if you buy better noise performance, better dynamic range and get 50MP as a bonus?
Buy me a couple hard drives and I'll take it!

10-18-2014, 03:18 PM   #32
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I don't think the proponents of a super high MP FF are taking the big picture (for Pentax) into account.

As others have already said, Pentax MF fills the ultra-high resolution market slot, there isn't any point in duplicating that capability with the FF.

A fast frame-rate, faster processing, more manageable file sizes (read more versatile and mobile) professional system is the capability gap that the Pentax line-up currently has, which is why 24MP is a far more likely than 36 or 50MP.
10-18-2014, 03:38 PM   #33
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Conflicting actions by mfr Sony and Nikon

Sony of course made the low light A7S and equipped it with a 12mp sensor - yes, i know why. But thats an indication that MP as low as 12mp in FF are still credible.

Nikon came out with the D750 and by all accounts is doing well with it. A friend of mine who really wanted the D800, now has switched to wanting the 750. I think its 24 or 28mp.

50mp would reduce buffer frame limits, AF processing, etc. I don't think enthusiasts would plunk the money down just to have 50mp in a FF. Some might, but not many, IMO.

Surely, Sony has some more worthwhile project than super high mp - seems silly.
10-18-2014, 05:42 PM   #34
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For APSC, I think a 16-18MP camera is a great range for them, since they would have a high FPS and a high buffer rate. Anything over 21MP I think is a bit too high for APSC (and smaller sensor) cameras.
For a FF I think 12MP (like Nikon's D700) to 24MP would be a great range.

10-18-2014, 06:07 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
I don't think the proponents of a super high MP FF are taking the big picture (for Pentax) into account.

As others have already said, Pentax MF fills the ultra-high resolution market slot, there isn't any point in duplicating that capability with the FF.

A fast frame-rate, faster processing, more manageable file sizes (read more versatile and mobile) professional system is the capability gap that the Pentax line-up currently has, which is why 24MP is a far more likely than 36 or 50MP.
I think as long as they're both same-gen CMOS, it would be fine - little product collision based on MP. If you have an inferior sensor on 645 vs. a better sensor on FF, then yes you would want to differentiate with MP - always allowing your MF product to have more to give another reason to buy it. Same-gen CMOS on both keeps the IQ advantage with the larger sensor, irregardless of MP.

But I see what you're saying, and you may be right. Canon/Nikon/Sony don't have medium format products they would cannibalize with 50+MP FF, even if the cannibilzation would be based on a partially-false premise that "MP is MP, format doesn't matter"...

On that count I think Pentax should come out with an 80MP 645Z/2 right away! Make room for the FF!
10-18-2014, 10:48 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by Poit Quote
As others have already said, Pentax MF fills the ultra-high resolution market slot, there isn't any point in duplicating that capability with the FF.
Sure there is, don't be so narrow-minded.

It's not like you can buy f/1.4 lenses in medium format. And the AF systems built into MF cameras are usually inferior, both due to the slow product refresh cycles as well as the physical inertia of moving large, heavy glass. And high-ISO performance usually lags as well for the same reasons.

That said, the sensor comparison is specifically a production/market issue. If you put a current-gen MF chip against a current-gen FF chip the MF is going to have better results. Not hugely, but some better, much like APS-C vs FF. Of course your photo-budget is in serious diminishing returns territory at that point.
10-18-2014, 10:59 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Steve.Ledger Quote
Less is more...
more or less...
10-18-2014, 11:00 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Sony of course made the low light A7S and equipped it with a 12mp sensor - yes, i know why. But thats an indication that MP as low as 12mp in FF are still credible.
It's credible if there's a good reason for it. Don't mistake "low megapixels" for "bargain priced camera", the selling points on the A7S are absurd ultra-high-ISO performance and 4K video. It's priced at the same level as the A7R (36mp) and a couple hundred bucks more than the A7.

That doesn't mean you can get away with selling a sensor of similar vintage to a 5D classic. The A7S is also, frankly, kind of a niche product. If you don't need those 2 selling points you're better off with one of the other A7 flavors. The guy I knew who had one realized this and ended up selling it.

QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Btw., back to lenses that are meant to be fixed in post... Samsung now has APS-C sized BSI sensors... and I'm sure that tech will come to FF sized sensors too. That allows for higher resolutions without having to give up much low light performance. So how about a sensor that has a higher than necessary resolution, combined with a lens that needs to be distorted in post. Say you want 20 MP as an end result, that should be really sharp, but the sensor has 28 MP. Fixing distortions in post loses resolution at the corners, but at the end the image is scaled down to 20 MP (with the option to keep 28 MP images when needed, especially when using better glass). The 20 MP image will be sharp until the corners. It's like having a 20 MP camera with high quality, big, heavy and expensive glass. On FF maybe the sensor could have 50 MP, with the target being 28, 36 MP...
The problem here is the diffraction limit. If the image is captured at 28mp, you have 28mp worth of diffraction - something like f/4. The physical interaction of the sensor and the light beams don't care that you're throwing away resolution after the fact.

10-18-2014, 11:14 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
... On that count I think Pentax should come out with an 80MP 645Z/2 right away! Make room for the FF!
I said pretty much that same thing in another thread a week or so ago.

When Nikon comes out with a 54-63 MP FF Ricoh is going to release a 24-36 MP camera (max) because they won't want to damage 645Z sales in any way. If they'd created an 80-100 MP MF camera they wouldn't have to worry about protecting that product line for awhile.

I think Ricoh are more likely to release a 24MP FF camera if they go the FF route.
10-19-2014, 01:28 AM - 1 Like   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Paul MaudDib Quote
Sure there is, don't be so narrow-minded.

It's not like you can buy f/1.4 lenses in medium format.
*snip*
I's also because you don't need to, sensor is bigger...

Last edited by LensBeginner; 10-19-2014 at 07:51 AM. Reason: whops.. an "o" too much... starting to talk forumese too...
10-19-2014, 02:07 AM   #41
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Well, let's see. It may be that at the same time a 50 mpx sensor is released, rumours start about the imminent release of organic sensors, multi-layer sensors and so forth. if these new sensor types are thought to have advantages, then talk may quickly switch from number of pixels to quality of pixels in terms of DR, noise, colour rendition and so forth. For most folks, 24-36 mpx of new-generation, superior performance makes more sense than 50 mpx of good but standard-issue performance. It may even be that a new type of sensor delivers such a good performance that 16-24 mpx on APS-C is enough for many folks to feel they are moving up and beyond the current crop. For the camera companies, it's surely all about getting off the current plateau and giving folks convincing reasons to upgrade.
10-19-2014, 02:39 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Within aps-c



What if you buy better noise performance, better dynamic range and get 50MP as a bonus?
If you got those things, that would be fine, but even comparing the D610 and D810 sensors, they basically perform the same -- the D610 does have a little better dynamic range in the low iso range (at comparable iso). I just don't buy that Sony has magically figured out how to improve high iso and dynamic range over the D800 sensor. I don't think adding megapixels will make it worse, I just don't think it will make it better.
10-19-2014, 02:45 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by dyoon153 Quote
even if they really want to release their own FF
What's this "if" word doing in that sentence? I understood it to be a certainty.
10-19-2014, 04:01 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
On that count I think Pentax should come out with an 80MP 645Z/2 right away! Make room for the FF!
Talking about low volume production sensors. The one problem for the 645 system is that Pentax released lenses that are only for the crop sensor size 44x33mm. So we could see a new sensor with more megapixels but we are pretty much pinned on the sensorsize. Or maybe that 36x48mm is also possible?
10-19-2014, 07:42 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by LensBeginner Quote
I's also because you don't need too, sensor is bigger...
I think 44x33 would need an f1.8 or so lens to compete. The fastest native lenses are f/2.8 iirc.
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