Pentax Full frame semi confirmed

rawr · 11-12-2014, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by kooks

i dont really get that.

Yes, it's a pity they didn't do a FF several years ago. It would, for one thing, mean that by now there would always be a few used Pentax FF's in the marketplace for good prices

But Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic, Ricoh themselves, Sigma, Samsung haven't done FF yet either. Every business has their own history and priorities.

normhead · 11-12-2014, 05:39 PM

Quote:

The thing here is that Pentax at this time doenst have nothing to equial a FF sensor quality for example the D750 or D810 .. and yes.. we do have the 645Z but, for how much??

Establishing yourself as the front runner in a market is always a good idea. The buzz around the 645z would never have happened with just another FF. After seeing clients with d800 series cameras, with focusing issues and one that stopped working 5 days out on a 6 day trip, I hope Pentax doesn't emulate a D800/D810. If they can't do better than that, don't do anything.

dakight · 11-13-2014, 05:28 AM

Opinion is certainly divided on how much benefit a FF will really provide. It's not surprising that Ricoh is being cautious. I hope they don't release something just to say they have it. If it isn't a compelling product with tangible benefits then it isn't worth doing. The truth of the matter is that as vocal as the proponents in this board are about the need for a FF system, if the market for it is not there then it would be foolish to do it. They have to have confidence that they can sell enough copies to recoup their development costs. Pentax is the AMC of the camera world and if they aren't careful they will follow in the same vein. There is precious little room for error in what appears to be a shrinking market.

normhead · 11-13-2014, 06:10 AM

Originally posted by dakight

Opinion is certainly divided on how much benefit a FF will really provide. It's not surprising that Ricoh is being cautious. I hope they don't release something just to say they have it. If it isn't a compelling product with tangible benefits then it isn't worth doing. The truth of the matter is that as vocal as the proponents in this board are about the need for a FF system, if the market for it is not there then it would be foolish to do it. They have to have confidence that they can sell enough copies to recoup their development costs. Pentax is the AMC of the camera world and if they aren't careful they will follow in the same vein. There is precious little room for error in what appears to be a shrinking market.

People forget that.... and there are people here who would rather see Pentax release an FF and fail than not release one. In their minds it's better would be best to take the gamble and get it over with. No Pentax after gambling on an FF is a better option for them than just APS-c Pentax going forward. At least they'll have a chance to buy their Pentax compatible FF before it dies, even if there's never another one. All the talk about why Pentax should release a full frame is unsupported by anything but blind logic, with no supporting economic numbers. Maybe it would be a great thing, maybe it would sink them.. the problem is, despite all the blowhard insanity on the forum, we just don't know.

Clavius · 11-13-2014, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by normhead

People forget that.... and there are people here who would rather see Pentax release an FF and fail than not release one. In their minds it's better would be best to take the gamble and get it over with. No Pentax after gambling on an FF is a better option for them than just APS-c Pentax going forward. At least they'll have a chance to buy their Pentax compatible FF before it dies, even if there's never another one. All the talk about why Pentax should release a full frame is unsupported by anything but blind logic, with no supporting economic numbers. Maybe it would be a great thing, maybe it would sink them.. the problem is, despite all the blowhard insanity on the forum, we just don't know.

Those people probably think Pentax is doomed without FF. So in their view, taking a gamble at least gives the chance of survival.

I think Pentax will be fine. Even without FF.

And those Japanese smiles do mean something. Saying "no" is impolite in Japanese culture.

jackypentax · 11-13-2014, 06:27 AM

Let's wait and see

Originally posted by johan kruger

hi

Well in least in my mind semi confirmed. I was at the Photo and film expo in South Africa and spoke to some of the reps at the stand. (PS awesome stand and nice support taking into account Nikon pulled from the show at the last second and might a lot of people upset). I was just in general talking trying to find out what this lens http://news.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/rim_info/2_telephotozoomlens_photokina2014.jpg. is

The Rep could not confirm what it is but when I asked if this was a new full frame 70-200 F2.8 lens I did get a big smile. (might not mean much). I also asked if they are then working on a 24-70 F2.8 but was just met with smiles. So I'm hopeful to some announcement in the not to distend future. As I have a few good FA* lenses I am looking forward to this. I also tried to get a date and is thinking this will happen next year.

PS the other lens might be a 150-400 as per the lens roadmap

normhead · 11-13-2014, 06:37 AM

I'm still betting on before spring next year. But I still probably won't buy one, unless it's like 2 or 3 years from now on my next regular upgrade cycle. And at that point it, it's possible I'll still pass on it.

btnapa · 11-13-2014, 08:32 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

And those Japanese smiles do mean something. Saying "no" is impolite in Japanese culture.

I guess that is why they have been saying "definite maybe" every time some one asked about FF!!!::

dakight · 11-13-2014, 09:35 AM

It occurs to me that not all of our readers are American or familiar with American Corporate culture. For reference "AMC" was American Motors Corporation, the number 4 maker of automobiles in the US. They were always a niche player in the market and were eventually absorbed by Chrysler in the mid-1980s. Pentax could very easily fall to a similar fate.

mecrox · 11-13-2014, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by dakight

Opinion is certainly divided on how much benefit a FF will really provide. It's not surprising that Ricoh is being cautious. I hope they don't release something just to say they have it. If it isn't a compelling product with tangible benefits then it isn't worth doing. The truth of the matter is that as vocal as the proponents in this board are about the need for a FF system, if the market for it is not there then it would be foolish to do it. They have to have confidence that they can sell enough copies to recoup their development costs. Pentax is the AMC of the camera world and if they aren't careful they will follow in the same vein. There is precious little room for error in what appears to be a shrinking market.

A serious problem at least at the moment is the speed at which technology is changing what other camera-maker can do. We now have the Samsung NX1 with its new sensor, astounding frame rate and throughput (won't make anyone a better photographer, though). And there are rumours that Sony will debut a boosted range of A7 Pro FF cameras early next year, quite likely with something of the same abilities - which in essence comes down to applying high-power mobile chips and software to camera circuit boards, at least certainly in Samsung's case. Meanwhile Canon have hinted at doing something serious with larger-format mirrorless soon. This makes issuing a plain-vanilla FF DSLR even more problematic for Pentax than it would be anyway since the market may be changing as mobile technology starts to make an impact. Pentax may well have missed the boat with "old school" DSLR FF. They'll sell some to existing Pentax-owners, of course, but going forward this may not be the kind of camera which much appeals to folks anymore. It could be seen as "old era" tech, so to speak, long before Pentax have established it enough to start making some proper financial returns from the project. Or not. I expect we'll see.

LensBeginner · 11-13-2014, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

A serious problem at least at the moment is the speed at which technology is changing what other camera-maker can do. We now have the Samsung NX1 with its new sensor, astounding frame rate and throughput (won't make anyone a better photographer, though). And there are rumours that Sony will debut a boosted range of A7 Pro FF cameras early next year, quite likely with something of the same abilities - which in essence comes down to applying high-power mobile chips and software to camera circuit boards, at least certainly in Samsung's case. Meanwhile Canon have hinted at doing something serious with larger-format mirrorless soon. This makes issuing a plain-vanilla FF DSLR even more problematic for Pentax than it would be anyway since the market may be changing as mobile technology starts to make an impact. Pentax may well have missed the boat with "old school" DSLR FF. They'll sell some to existing Pentax-owners, of course, but going forward this may not be the kind of camera which much appeals to folks anymore. Or not. I expect we'll see.

I believe there's many ways to look at the issue...
We have the tech curve, which can present a sharp increase and then a shoulder when significant improvement becomes more difficult.
The MP war followed a similar curve.

Then there's the usefulness curve, which is very subjective...
I believe the jump from 6 to 16MP was very important, game changing perhaps, but I personally don't think another similar 62.5% increase would be as interesting... at least ATM...

Then, some things change the quality of what you have, some others just change the quantity.
One can't simply rely on number-crunching in order to evaluate progress - I'm sure you're not doing that, this is only meant to be a general analysis...

kooks · 11-13-2014, 12:41 PM

IMO .. next year could be the last year that Pentax could release their FF DSLR, with the mirrorless FF people still have the power of a FF sensor but with a smaller body. For a good amount of people that is really really atractive and specially because that market is growing kind of fast.

If we can get the image quality and features of a FF DSLR but in a mirrorless body well... lets wellcome that technology.. The fact is that we need something better than the APS-C and not as expensive as the 645Z ...

LensBeginner · 11-13-2014, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by kooks

IMO .. next year could be the last year that Pentax could release their FF DSLR, with the mirrorless FF people still have the power of a FF sensor but with a smaller body. For a good amount of people that is really really atractive and specially because that market is growing kind of fast.

If we can get the image quality and features of a FF DSLR but in a mirrorless body well... lets wellcome that technology.. The fact is that we need something better than the APS-C and not as expensive as the 645Z ...

There has been the announcement of a Medium Format "mirrorless" already, so, yeah, a FF mirrorless would be nice...

AtitG · 11-15-2014, 07:33 AM

I think pentax would be better served by uncropping the 645z sensor than their apsc sensor.ü

normhead · 11-15-2014, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by AtitG

I think pentax would be better served by uncropping the 645z sensor than their apsc sensor.ü

Where would they get the sensor?

11-12-2014, 05:39 PM	#47
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Quote: The thing here is that Pentax at this time doenst have nothing to equial a FF sensor quality for example the D750 or D810 .. and yes.. we do have the 645Z but, for how much?? Establishing yourself as the front runner in a market is always a good idea. The buzz around the 645z would never have happened with just another FF. After seeing clients with d800 series cameras, with focusing issues and one that stopped working 5 days out on a 6 day trip, I hope Pentax doesn't emulate a D800/D810. If they can't do better than that, don't do anything. Last edited by normhead; 11-13-2014 at 06:02 AM.

11-13-2014, 08:32 AM	#53
btnapa Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,615	It is baffling... Originally posted by Clavius And those Japanese smiles do mean something. Saying "no" is impolite in Japanese culture. I guess that is why they have been saying "definite maybe" every time some one asked about FF!!!::

11-13-2014, 10:11 AM	#55
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by dakight Opinion is certainly divided on how much benefit a FF will really provide. It's not surprising that Ricoh is being cautious. I hope they don't release something just to say they have it. If it isn't a compelling product with tangible benefits then it isn't worth doing. The truth of the matter is that as vocal as the proponents in this board are about the need for a FF system, if the market for it is not there then it would be foolish to do it. They have to have confidence that they can sell enough copies to recoup their development costs. Pentax is the AMC of the camera world and if they aren't careful they will follow in the same vein. There is precious little room for error in what appears to be a shrinking market. A serious problem at least at the moment is the speed at which technology is changing what other camera-maker can do. We now have the Samsung NX1 with its new sensor, astounding frame rate and throughput (won't make anyone a better photographer, though). And there are rumours that Sony will debut a boosted range of A7 Pro FF cameras early next year, quite likely with something of the same abilities - which in essence comes down to applying high-power mobile chips and software to camera circuit boards, at least certainly in Samsung's case. Meanwhile Canon have hinted at doing something serious with larger-format mirrorless soon. This makes issuing a plain-vanilla FF DSLR even more problematic for Pentax than it would be anyway since the market may be changing as mobile technology starts to make an impact. Pentax may well have missed the boat with "old school" DSLR FF. They'll sell some to existing Pentax-owners, of course, but going forward this may not be the kind of camera which much appeals to folks anymore. It could be seen as "old era" tech, so to speak, long before Pentax have established it enough to start making some proper financial returns from the project. Or not. I expect we'll see. Last edited by mecrox; 11-13-2014 at 10:59 AM.

11-13-2014, 12:41 PM	#57
kooks Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San José, Costa Rica Photos: Albums Posts: 794	IMO .. next year could be the last year that Pentax could release their FF DSLR, with the mirrorless FF people still have the power of a FF sensor but with a smaller body. For a good amount of people that is really really atractive and specially because that market is growing kind of fast. If we can get the image quality and features of a FF DSLR but in a mirrorless body well... lets wellcome that technology.. The fact is that we need something better than the APS-C and not as expensive as the 645Z ... Last edited by kooks; 11-13-2014 at 12:49 PM.

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11-12-2014, 05:36 PM	#46
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by kooks i dont really get that. Yes, it's a pity they didn't do a FF several years ago. It would, for one thing, mean that by now there would always be a few used Pentax FF's in the marketplace for good prices But Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic, Ricoh themselves, Sigma, Samsung haven't done FF yet either. Every business has their own history and priorities.

11-13-2014, 05:28 AM	#48
dakight Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Phoenix, AZ Photos: Albums Posts: 1,216	Opinion is certainly divided on how much benefit a FF will really provide. It's not surprising that Ricoh is being cautious. I hope they don't release something just to say they have it. If it isn't a compelling product with tangible benefits then it isn't worth doing. The truth of the matter is that as vocal as the proponents in this board are about the need for a FF system, if the market for it is not there then it would be foolish to do it. They have to have confidence that they can sell enough copies to recoup their development costs. Pentax is the AMC of the camera world and if they aren't careful they will follow in the same vein. There is precious little room for error in what appears to be a shrinking market.

11-13-2014, 06:10 AM	#49
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by dakight Opinion is certainly divided on how much benefit a FF will really provide. It's not surprising that Ricoh is being cautious. I hope they don't release something just to say they have it. If it isn't a compelling product with tangible benefits then it isn't worth doing. The truth of the matter is that as vocal as the proponents in this board are about the need for a FF system, if the market for it is not there then it would be foolish to do it. They have to have confidence that they can sell enough copies to recoup their development costs. Pentax is the AMC of the camera world and if they aren't careful they will follow in the same vein. There is precious little room for error in what appears to be a shrinking market. People forget that.... and there are people here who would rather see Pentax release an FF and fail than not release one. In their minds it's better would be best to take the gamble and get it over with. No Pentax after gambling on an FF is a better option for them than just APS-c Pentax going forward. At least they'll have a chance to buy their Pentax compatible FF before it dies, even if there's never another one. All the talk about why Pentax should release a full frame is unsupported by anything but blind logic, with no supporting economic numbers. Maybe it would be a great thing, maybe it would sink them.. the problem is, despite all the blowhard insanity on the forum, we just don't know.

11-13-2014, 06:19 AM	#50
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by normhead People forget that.... and there are people here who would rather see Pentax release an FF and fail than not release one. In their minds it's better would be best to take the gamble and get it over with. No Pentax after gambling on an FF is a better option for them than just APS-c Pentax going forward. At least they'll have a chance to buy their Pentax compatible FF before it dies, even if there's never another one. All the talk about why Pentax should release a full frame is unsupported by anything but blind logic, with no supporting economic numbers. Maybe it would be a great thing, maybe it would sink them.. the problem is, despite all the blowhard insanity on the forum, we just don't know. Those people probably think Pentax is doomed without FF. So in their view, taking a gamble at least gives the chance of survival. I think Pentax will be fine. Even without FF. And those Japanese smiles do mean something. Saying "no" is impolite in Japanese culture.

11-13-2014, 06:27 AM	#51
jackypentax New Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Photos: Gallery Posts: 24	Let's wait and see Originally posted by johan kruger hi Well in least in my mind semi confirmed. I was at the Photo and film expo in South Africa and spoke to some of the reps at the stand. (PS awesome stand and nice support taking into account Nikon pulled from the show at the last second and might a lot of people upset). I was just in general talking trying to find out what this lens http://news.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/rim_info/2_telephotozoomlens_photokina2014.jpg. is The Rep could not confirm what it is but when I asked if this was a new full frame 70-200 F2.8 lens I did get a big smile. (might not mean much). I also asked if they are then working on a 24-70 F2.8 but was just met with smiles. So I'm hopeful to some announcement in the not to distend future. As I have a few good FA* lenses I am looking forward to this. I also tried to get a date and is thinking this will happen next year. PS the other lens might be a 150-400 as per the lens roadmap

11-13-2014, 06:37 AM	#52
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	I'm still betting on before spring next year. But I still probably won't buy one, unless it's like 2 or 3 years from now on my next regular upgrade cycle. And at that point it, it's possible I'll still pass on it.

11-13-2014, 09:35 AM	#54
dakight Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Phoenix, AZ Photos: Albums Posts: 1,216	It occurs to me that not all of our readers are American or familiar with American Corporate culture. For reference "AMC" was American Motors Corporation, the number 4 maker of automobiles in the US. They were always a niche player in the market and were eventually absorbed by Chrysler in the mid-1980s. Pentax could very easily fall to a similar fate.

11-13-2014, 10:19 AM	#56
LensBeginner Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,696	Originally posted by mecrox A serious problem at least at the moment is the speed at which technology is changing what other camera-maker can do. We now have the Samsung NX1 with its new sensor, astounding frame rate and throughput (won't make anyone a better photographer, though). And there are rumours that Sony will debut a boosted range of A7 Pro FF cameras early next year, quite likely with something of the same abilities - which in essence comes down to applying high-power mobile chips and software to camera circuit boards, at least certainly in Samsung's case. Meanwhile Canon have hinted at doing something serious with larger-format mirrorless soon. This makes issuing a plain-vanilla FF DSLR even more problematic for Pentax than it would be anyway since the market may be changing as mobile technology starts to make an impact. Pentax may well have missed the boat with "old school" DSLR FF. They'll sell some to existing Pentax-owners, of course, but going forward this may not be the kind of camera which much appeals to folks anymore. Or not. I expect we'll see. I believe there's many ways to look at the issue... We have the tech curve, which can present a sharp increase and then a shoulder when significant improvement becomes more difficult. The MP war followed a similar curve. Then there's the usefulness curve, which is very subjective... I believe the jump from 6 to 16MP was very important, game changing perhaps, but I personally don't think another similar 62.5% increase would be as interesting... at least ATM... Then, some things change the quality of what you have, some others just change the quantity. One can't simply rely on number-crunching in order to evaluate progress - I'm sure you're not doing that, this is only meant to be a general analysis...

11-13-2014, 12:51 PM	#58
LensBeginner Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Photos: Albums Posts: 4,696	Originally posted by kooks IMO .. next year could be the last year that Pentax could release their FF DSLR, with the mirrorless FF people still have the power of a FF sensor but with a smaller body. For a good amount of people that is really really atractive and specially because that market is growing kind of fast. If we can get the image quality and features of a FF DSLR but in a mirrorless body well... lets wellcome that technology.. The fact is that we need something better than the APS-C and not as expensive as the 645Z ... There has been the announcement of a Medium Format "mirrorless" already, so, yeah, a FF mirrorless would be nice...

11-15-2014, 07:33 AM	#59
AtitG Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 269	I think pentax would be better served by uncropping the 645z sensor than their apsc sensor.ü

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11-15-2014, 07:57 AM	#60
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by AtitG I think pentax would be better served by uncropping the 645z sensor than their apsc sensor.ü Where would they get the sensor?