[zoolander]

It's just business.....in the end the retailer is in the game to make money...

Actually I think its more phylosophy. When I first got into DSLR with Nikon, most sales people suggested that you should buy a nikon or canon APSC body, and JUST buy EF or FX lenses, then once you're finished learning on the APSC body, you upgrade to a 35mm DSLR. At that time a 35mm DSLR was AUD $4000. The sales people would say that APSC would eventually be dead, once 35x26mm sensors became cheaper..............

Then I don't want to hear all the whines about how "internet is killing retailers! it's unfair".
If the supposed "added value" of retailers is being given incorrect information or getting downright scammed, I'll take e-commerce anyday, thank you.

But.......

So that is another reason why RICOH/PENTAX needs to release a FF body soon.. so people will not have that excuse for not buying a Pentax system. and that will help sales from entry level cameras to high-end APS-C .. it will be like having a big brother to back them up ( 645Z is a big big brother but kind of lives in another neighboor ).

Thats what I also think now, that pentax MUST release its 35mm DSLR, so's that it can gain some relevance in the market.

But !

Fujifilm is an APSC only range, and some sales people are extremely positive about it, because of the image quality and very sharp lens range. They don't totally write off Fujifilm for not having a 35mm mirrorless - hey I'm not even sure if some of the fujifilm lenses will support a future 35mm mirrorless.

My local regional Camera House still stocks Pentax, so it's not a chain-wide policy. It depends on the local store manager, I think.
And Teds still feature Pentax a lot on their web site. Since they've been carrying Pentax since the 1970's, I don't see them dropping the brand entirely in store either. But I'll check next time I'm in Sydney or Canberra.

Since CRK distribute so many camera gear brands aside from Pentax/Ricoh (Sigma, Sandisk, LensPen, Tokina, Zeiss, Tamrac, Vanguard, Eyefi, Metz, Black Rapid, Hoya, Kenko, Slik, X-rite etc) which are widely carried in stores in Australia, the low visibilty of Pentax in many stores does puzzle me

True, but I was told that head office will no longer carry Pentax at Teds even in the city store. Perhaps this is a Brisbane or Queensland thing, you know we've had a lot of crackpots up here - Sir Joh, B Katter, P Hansen, C Palmer lol. Heeeeeeeeey, i made a political joke !

Well my local Teds did have a K-3 on the shelves but it sold before i got to try it, and they said they won't be bringing in any more Pentax. All thats left are a couple of lenses on the shelves. The sales people just complain about Pentax. One sales guy complained about his D7000 having oil spots, but you don't see them pulling nikon from the shelves over the oil spot cameras D90, D5000, D7000, D7100, D700, D600, D610, D750, D800's, D3s etc etc. I mean THATS a major inherent design problem with Nikon. I think there are some Canon models with oil spot issues too.

https://www.flickr.com/groups/d7000-oil-on-sensor/pool/

[Clavius]

Well my local Teds did have a K-3 on the shelves but it sold before i got to try it, and they said they won't be bringing in any more Pentax. All thats left are a couple of lenses on the shelves. The sales people just complain about Pentax.

I've seen stores 'trying' Pentax products and then quickly stopping before. How does Pentax mess up here? What is the sales people's complaint? (Pentaxians to informed? Not gullible enough?☺)

[kooks]

All this sales people complaing and ignoring Pentax products could be fixed by having RICOH sales representative visiting the stores and giving the sellers a little "workshop" about Pentax cameras.. so AT LEAST, they will find out things like that many bodies are WR, all DSLRs have IBIS, K3 and K5iis doesnt use AA filter.. or that this cameras can focus at -3EV... and so many other things that I really doubt they will even know about Pentax...

The problem is that they dont sell Pentax because they dont know about Pentax features.. This could be fixed with some marketing and sales representatives visiting the stores.

[gmans]

Sir Joh, B Katter, P Hansen, C Palmer lol. Heeeeeeeeey, i made a political joke !

Queensland heroes, don't forget Rusty Hinge.

[redcat]

most sales people suggested that you should buy a nikon or canon APSC body, and JUST buy EF or FX lenses, then once you're finished learning on the APSC body, you upgrade to a 35mm DSLR

this is so true ! once you master the APS-C, you will want a fullframe, it's a natural upgrade

[Franc]

this is so true ! once you master the APS-C, you will want a fullframe, it's a natural upgrade

and then you want a 645Z

[zoolander]

Queensland heroes, don't forget Rusty Hinge.

Queensland, the state that keeps on giving ! Tasmania gave a great donation in Lambie ! I do note the comedians down south like to poke fun at all the crackpots up here - its gotta be the heat and humidity sending us bonkers ! lol

I've seen stores 'trying' Pentax products and then quickly stopping before. How does Pentax mess up here? What is the sales people's complaint? (Pentaxians to informed? Not gullible enough?☺)

I'm not so sure if its totally Pentax's fault. Its definitely the sales staff. Only a few sales staff will show the other systems like Pentax, fujifilm or the Sony range.

I once went to a night club, I was dressed real well with a nice collared shirt, black slacks on and nice shiny black shoes on. The other people in the line up were in sneakers, jeans and t-shirts. So finally I made it to the front of the line, and the bouncer detached the red rope from the bollard and motioned for me to leave the line, saying ..... "You're not what we're looking for"............

And whoomp there it is !

Sales people who are out of work professionals only like canikon, and everything else is "not what we're looking for". Sony's bending over backwards with the A7 range, and canikons will scoff at it, and thats the industry. Some sales people are open to other brands and systems, while most are not.

this is so true ! once you master the APS-C, you will want a fullframe, it's a natural upgrade

Thats not true. APSC is a system in its own right. APSC can take APSC lenses plus 35mm ("FF") lenses. 35mm DSLR's cannot take APSC lenses - except some Nikon 35mm DSLR's in DX mode - and there are some really great APSC lenses which are affordable. Most wildlife photographers prefer to shoot on APSC for the extended reach using 35mm ("FF") lenses. For wild life, a 35mm image cropped to x1.5 (APSC size) is between 8-14mp depending upon the body. Where an APSC is x1.5 at 20 or 24mp has far more room to play with and crop further. Also APSC lenses and bodies tend to be smaller, lighter and more compact.

The main reason why you would want a 35mm DSLR is for the slightly better high ISO performance. But the bottom of the line APSC Fujifilm X-A1 can match the high ISO performance of 35mm DSLR's. Many people want a 35mm DSLR, but don't want all the bulk of the body and the lenses.

Considering I've met a couple of pro's who down graded from a Nikon D800, and the other a Canon 5Diii, to a Fujifilm X-T1, speaks volumes that big 35mm DSLR's ("FF") are not appealing to some.

When I learnt to drive a car and got my licence, and then over the next 6 months I got the hang driving, I didn't say okay thats it, I'm buying a prime mover or a dump truck. You wouldn't buy a prime mover or dump truck because you've mastered driving a car.

Same as a person who likes riding motor bikes. When he masters riding a motorbike he doesn't say now I'm gonna upgrade to a trike or a car.

I drive what I feel I need ..... and that suits my purpose. APSC has its purpose and is suited for certian uses. (All though this is a thread about 35mm "FF" lol)

[rawr]

I'm not so sure if its totally Pentax's fault. Its definitely the sales staff. Only a few sales staff will show the other systems like Pentax, fujifilm or the Sony range.

it does seem as if many stores essentially run as one-brand operations.

Places like Camerapro in Brisbane for example are essentially a Canon shop. DCW in Brisbane felt that way too last time I visited, with it's dedicated Canon booth and piles of Canon gear. Sometimes it's because of direct vendor support/kickbacks/generous credit, other times it seems that a certain camera culture takes root in a store, based on the gear experience of the sales people. Sometimes it's just practical for store management to concentrate on a limited number of brands - makes training, stock control etc easier, I imagine. Since most camera retailers in Australia are relatively small operations, they have to keep things lean and simple.

And sometimes it seems that stores simply have disputes with the gear distributor - apparently why Harvey Norman carries no Pentax or Ricoh or other CRK gear.

[Mikesul]

Because the future is mirrorless and all electronic lens connections?

• Whether it is 2015 or 2025 the mirror is going, so maybe it is time to think ahead instead of behind.
• Several third party manufacturers have dropped Pentax completely and Sigma is steadily reducing their offerings. It has been stated that it is harder to develop for K-mount because of the mechanical linkage.
• Canon and Nikon have the FF DSLR market sewn up, not even Sony has been able to crack that much. But mirrorless FF, that is a new market with potential future.
• Ricoh appears to be focusing more on developing markets, (Asia, India) perhaps mirrorless is a better fit there.
• There is zero profit to Ricoh in building cameras for 'old guys that wish to use again their FF lenses with the FF body'.
• It is easier to develop short registration lens? No idea about that, but Sony, Fuji both seem to have no problem bringing out very nice lenses for their mirrorless offerings.
• K-mount is a FF mount, but it is also mechanical and outdated.

Just playing devils advocate here. I think the two new prototypes shown at Photokina pretty clearly state a FF will be K-mount. But it does not rule out the possibility of a mirrorless with integrated adapter to k-mount. Personally I am not sure I want mirrorless, and I have a good set of FF K-mount glass so I think I would prefer a traditional DSLR. But if they delivered a FF mirrorless that included in the box a k-mount adapter that functioned seamlessly I think I would be very hard put not to evaluate it seriously. This would allow them to retain current customers but start the move to a modern, short registration mount. Want to stay k-mount? Fine, leave the adapter on. Want to move to the new mount? Easy to do, just take the adapter off.


All knee jerk reactions aside, if (with the adapter) it functions exactly like a current K-mount camera but with EVF what is not to like? Except the EVF of course

Interesting, thought provoking post. As to the zero profit comment: that seems to be exactly where Sony made much of its profit from the NEX and now A7 lines. People loved using legacy glass on these cameras and, for at least the time that Sony had few native e-mount lenses, that is what sold cameras. Pentax has a strong FF line up right now and can release updated lenses for new sales.

[aleonx3]

All this sales people complaing and ignoring Pentax products could be fixed by having RICOH sales representative visiting the stores and giving the sellers a little "workshop" about Pentax cameras.. so AT LEAST, they will find out things like that many bodies are WR, all DSLRs have IBIS, K3 and K5iis doesnt use AA filter.. or that this cameras can focus at -3EV... and so many other things that I really doubt they will even know about Pentax...

The problem is that they dont sell Pentax because they dont know about Pentax features.. This could be fixed with some marketing and sales representatives visiting the stores.

Excellent points, reminds me of the Cisco model in the networking world with certified experts who can assist with sales of products to the corporate world.

[mrNewt]

Will still not help much if the store is product biased...

[kooks]

Perhaps another way to promote the brand is sponsoring a couple of photographers at some towns.. people that have especially some good marketing on social networks and that can promote the brand.. is it that hard for RICOH to give up some lenses for this people?? or a new body?? .. this could be a good investment in order to promote a brand that needs massive marketing..

[eddie1960]

Nikon d750 = $2,296.95
Canon 5D mark II = $2,694.00

Pentax K3 = $896.95
they have a big gap to fill and I didn't mention the price of Canikon flagship like D810 or 5d mark III

---------- Post added 11-20-14 at 03:15 PM ----------


it depends on what you want to shoot, 645 is a big fat camera and heavy, usually used in studio with a steady tripod
the FF in my opinion will be a lot lighter and can be easily used handheld

6d and d600 also to take in to account (not to mention the DF and the sonys)
I would put it at $22-2499 but maybe they will surprise me and be 1999

[Mikesul]

6d and d600 also to take in to account (not to mention the DF and the sonys)
I would put it at $22-2499 but maybe they will surprise me and be 1999

They have to do something spectacular or it will be ignored. A price at or lower than your low figure may be the only way to do that.

[Sage97]

I'm quite ignorant about full frames and so far what I'm seeing is FF = focal length differences with the same lens, better low light performance, less noise at higher ISO, better color and overall image quality especially for wide lenses. Is my understanding off? Are there other benefits to FF I am missing? Would it require different lenses?