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12-16-2014, 09:24 AM   #31
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I'd say it's history It happened while digital still had inferior image quality, first for photojournalists/sport shooters who needed immediacy, then (almost) everyone followed. Now people are seldom printing, and film doesn't make much sense.

Post-processing while you should be composing/watching the subject is not immediacy, either. I would rather pre-set the camera so I won't have to deal with unnecessary things when capturing the subject is important; others might prefer doing things differently.
So the kind of immediacy the EVF offers (displaying an approximation of an in-camera JPEG) is not valued by everyone. While OVFs offers another kind of immediacy - effectively displaying the subject at the speed of light.

Replacing perfectly working OVFs with still inadequate (for some) EVFs is not progress, IMHO. At least for a while, both technologies must coexist, because both are required.

Let's do this: each of us would go with his choice, while respecting the other's. And we'll watch what will happen in the next years.

12-16-2014, 01:32 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
There's nothing hard about that. But would anyone want this? Maybe today yes, but in three years or so? Sooner or later, Ricoh are going to have to get serious about modern mirrorless mounts, imho. Everything else is a stop-gap, including K-mount FF. Ricoh can't do what Canon and Nikon do because they aren't Canon or Nikon. They have to find another way of doing things or take Pentax apart from the 645 for a last long ride into the sunset if they bet the farm on the K-mount to take them through the next decade, I think. It's 2020 and the Pentax system still has a mechanical aperture lever, hmmm. Short term or long term?
One could say that every lens mount design starts to become obsolete the day after it is designed. "The rate of change has never been as fast as it is today; and never will be this slow again" If one looks at a system like Sony's A7, 7R, 7S, a native FE 50mm lens costs over $900. Or one could buy a Pentax or Canikon manual 50mm lens for the camera for $30 to $50. Also a cheap $20 adapter is needed. The advantages of today's modern digital sensors and bodies are not to be overlooked, IMO. And they work quite well with older manual lenses. I think my strategy is going to be to buy a normal zoom FE kit lens, and then supplement it with manual lenses or AF lenses, as i wish and can afford.

The advantage of having an EVF mirrorless Pentax camera is that all of Pentax's F, FA, and DA lenses could be used on it and enjoy up to date sensor and related technology. Starting a new mount system with a short registration distance around 30mm is also a viable and probably more desirable option than continuing with the K-mount. One could use a Pentax sold adapter with full automation to use existing Pentax lenses on such a mount. Sony has basically demonstrated the process of how one goes from a legacy mount to a rangefinder mount without throwing out existing legacy lens designs.

I see Canikon in the same boat as Pentax - except that they have a larger share of the marketplace at the moment. But the sales/shipment trend lines is not optimistic for existing DSLR designs. Throw up all the technical advantages one can imagine, but the final arbiter of who survives, is the currency votes in the marketplace.
12-16-2014, 02:18 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
There's nothing hard about that. But would anyone want this? Maybe today yes, but in three years or so? Sooner or later, Ricoh are going to have to get serious about modern mirrorless mounts, imho. Everything else is a stop-gap, including K-mount FF. Ricoh can't do what Canon and Nikon do because they aren't Canon or Nikon. They have to find another way of doing things or take Pentax apart from the 645 for a last long ride into the sunset if they bet the farm on the K-mount to take them through the next decade, I think. It's 2020 and the Pentax system still has a mechanical aperture lever, hmmm. Short term or long term?
I don't understand why Pentax can't make adjustments but keep the same registration distance. What would truly be the benefit of going to shorter registration distance? Being able to mount Leica lenses? I feel like that boat has sailed and there is no particular benefit at this point. You can easily make mirrorless k mount and add another pin or two and release updated lenses, if you need to. But honestly, having a mechanical aperture lever isn't holding Pentax back.
12-16-2014, 03:26 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I don't understand why Pentax can't make adjustments but keep the same registration distance. What would truly be the benefit of going to shorter registration distance? Being able to mount Leica lenses? I feel like that boat has sailed and there is no particular benefit at this point. You can easily make mirrorless k mount and add another pin or two and release updated lenses, if you need to. But honestly, having a mechanical aperture lever isn't holding Pentax back.
People like you and I don't care what Pentax does. We have enough camera equipment to last us until we croak

Manufacturers do care, however. When they see that mirrorless designs have 30% of the market, they would have to wonder whether it was time to take action, Or should they wait till mirrorless have 40, 50, or 60% of the market. What is the tripping point where a mfr starts to worry? At what point would you take action to assess and redesign your products, if necessary?

Canon made a pretty strong statement at photokina that they were going to take action to apply a mirrorless design of some kind of large sensor. So apparently their tripping point is somewhere around mirrorless = 30%. Nikon and Pentax seem convinced, on the other hand, that this whole mirrorless thing is a temporary aberration and the DSLR market will quickly rebound back to normal. Not to worry.

12-16-2014, 05:50 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
People like you and I don't care what Pentax does. We have enough camera equipment to last us until we croak

Manufacturers do care, however. When they see that mirrorless designs have 30% of the market, they would have to wonder whether it was time to take action, Or should they wait till mirrorless have 40, 50, or 60% of the market. What is the tripping point where a mfr starts to worry? At what point would you take action to assess and redesign your products, if necessary?

Canon made a pretty strong statement at photokina that they were going to take action to apply a mirrorless design of some kind of large sensor. So apparently their tripping point is somewhere around mirrorless = 30%. Nikon and Pentax seem convinced, on the other hand, that this whole mirrorless thing is a temporary aberration and the DSLR market will quickly rebound back to normal. Not to worry.
There are two elements here, I'd have thought. First, making what folks want to buy (demand); and secondly, making it as efficiently and cost-effectively as possible (production). Over the next ten years, it looks as if mirrorless cameras will gradually become what people want to buy, over traditional DSLRs, certainly in the broad mass of the market. And there are production efficiencies to consider in the notion of a camera on a chip - so far as possible, a camera on a circuit board with no moving parts. That argues against the DSLR and things like aperture levers. The famous A7 teardown by Lens Rentals shows what is going on here.

Starting out on a new line of conventional FF DSLRs now may be fine, or not, and it may be exactly what Pentax do, or not. But as a buyer, I'm considering where this system is like to be going over the next few years and how much it is likely to cost me. As a buyer, I'm thinking it might not be a very long-lasting system, since it runs against where tastes in cameras seem to be going; I'm thinking I might end up having to pass on a lot of utility by way of features (like an EVF but possibly other things too, like frame rates, panoramic stuff, etc.) over the next few years because it's a conventional DSLR with a flapping mirror; and I'm thinking the system might end up costing more than it should because the basic design cannot take advantage of cost savings in the way mirrorless cameras can. That will cost both me and the manufacturer who is in consequence might not be as keen to flesh out the system as much as I'd like.

Any camera-maker isn't selling one body when you get to the enthusiast and "serious" level. They are selling a whole system and one wants to invest in a system that's got some legs. Looked at over the next few years, and compared to what some other folks are doing, I'm not convinced a Pentax DSLR FF system would have the legs to be a sound investment over a period of time. I don't mean getting my money back or some such fantasy but a system I'm somehow stuck with and wish I hadn't bought because it isn't keeping up with what I'd like to do and what a camera can do (as new technology is introduced), or it isn't keeping up because after 3-5 years, it's already clear the camera-maker is getting cold feet as tastes change and the maker is stuck with a design that is relatively expensive to manufacture. Canon or Nikon might be able to pull it off, but not Pentax. They just don't have the market share and the vast amount of legacy support to carry them along. I mean, Pentax doing better than they are today on the basis of retaining a long-register mount with a mechanical aperture lever in, say, 2018-2020 - I just don't see it (at least, I hope I don't have to see it). That's just a personal opinion, nothing more.

Last edited by mecrox; 12-16-2014 at 06:09 PM.
12-16-2014, 06:05 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
People like you and I don't care what Pentax does. We have enough camera equipment to last us until we croak

Manufacturers do care, however. When they see that mirrorless designs have 30% of the market, they would have to wonder whether it was time to take action, Or should they wait till mirrorless have 40, 50, or 60% of the market. What is the tripping point where a mfr starts to worry? At what point would you take action to assess and redesign your products, if necessary?

Canon made a pretty strong statement at photokina that they were going to take action to apply a mirrorless design of some kind of large sensor. So apparently their tripping point is somewhere around mirrorless = 30%. Nikon and Pentax seem convinced, on the other hand, that this whole mirrorless thing is a temporary aberration and the DSLR market will quickly rebound back to normal. Not to worry.
There are different aspects that drive mirrorless cameras. The biggest thing, seems to me to be small size. How much smaller a mirrorless camera can be while keeping an old mount remains to be seen, but as has been mentioned many times before, your zooms can only get so small without having image quality suffer quite a bit. For forum members, one of the big things is being able to mount all sorts of lenses that they have lying around or have picked up here and there that they never thought they would be able to use again. Now, with a shorter registration distance and the right adapter, they can. I just don't see this as being a big driver of the market. Most people will buy one or two or three lenses at most (zooms probably) and stick with those. The idea that they could get old Canon FD lenses or some other ancient mount just isn't important -- particularly since they would be manual focusing them.

I just don't think it would take much to update the k mount where it would be as modern as it needs to be.

The issue for Pentax right now isn't the k mount, it is the lenses. Even those with in lens motors just aren't super speedy at this point.
12-16-2014, 06:10 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
So where are those sales of FF camera's? Or are they just going to do with their 24-105mm kitlens....



http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/s-201410_e.pdf

Ron, thanks for the source. Interesting and what I learn from it:

The sales of lenses for FF already surpassed that for smaller formats, value wise. At least in the US, on par elsewhere.
12-22-2014, 05:08 AM   #38
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My apologies if I have missed something or perhaps I am just obtuse but would removing the screw drive be something they might do to reduce size/weight? I thought about this with a sense of horror this morning since that would keep our beloved FA LTDS from enjoying full frame to the full. They work really well on the A7ii but it would be nice to retain AF. Hope this is not a possibility.

12-22-2014, 05:13 AM   #39
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They won't do that on cameras, not as long as they keep launching screw drive lenses
And they didn't do it in the K-S1, which they intended to make as small as possible.
12-22-2014, 07:43 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
My apologies if I have missed something or perhaps I am just obtuse but would removing the screw drive be something they might do to reduce size/weight? I thought about this with a sense of horror this morning since that would keep our beloved FA LTDS from enjoying full frame to the full. They work really well on the A7ii but it would be nice to retain AF. Hope this is not a possibility.
The real size limitation is the mirror box with the DSLR. With screw drive you get smaller lenses that should last for generations. What Pentax/Ricoh need to do is develop in body screw drive that is faster and quieter and improve the gears in the lenses. Like the OVF, it seem companies have stopped investing in new ways to improve this technology.
12-22-2014, 07:58 AM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
They won't do that on cameras, not as long as they keep launching screw drive lenses
And they didn't do it in the K-S1, which they intended to make as small as possible.
Good point! I should have thought of that. Proof of my obtuseness
12-22-2014, 12:57 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Ron, thanks for the source. Interesting and what I learn from it:

The sales of lenses for FF already surpassed that for smaller formats, value wise. At least in the US, on par elsewhere.
Have you noticed how different that is for the Japanese market? They buy smaller lenses for thier preferred smaller camera's.
12-23-2014, 03:12 PM   #43
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Its probably wrong to assume that a new mirrorless design means that the legacy mount would be discarded in some way. Canon , Pentax and Nikon have a valuable asset in their existing lens designs - and they are currently selling them quite well in the larger mount as some previous posts discussed. I expect that Canon will produce a mirrorless FF camera in 2015 and it will have the existing Canon mount. It may look funny at first, but it will get the job done and have some of the benefits that accrue to any mirrorless mount.

a) Less mirror shock to the camera
b) no need for calibration of the phase AF system
c) perhaps some lighter weight altho this isn't a big deal.
d) Less or no noise shutter system - think electronic shutter option like Sony did
e) Electronic visual aids in the EVF
f) faster frame rates for high speed shooting
g) No concerns about the life of the mirror mechanism - which should save money for the consumer and mfr.

Sure the camera may look funny with the older mount, but the customers will get used to it and many customers will appreciate the benefits of saving the old mount - and their investment in their current lenses.
12-23-2014, 04:33 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I expect that Canon will produce a mirrorless FF camera in 2015 and it will have the existing Canon mount.
The existing EF-M mount?
12-23-2014, 08:21 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
The existing EF-M mount?
Its an interesting precedent, apparently with an adapter, all the EF lenses can be used with it. Apparently its not suitable for native FF use.
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