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01-03-2015, 08:50 AM - 1 Like   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Very true and a camera Like the Panasonic FZ1000 with the 1" sensor and 25-400mm lens can do for the average holiday person anything they used to bring a dslr and 18-270mm lens for. Still not a small camera.
See this post: FZ1000 on a Botswana Safari - Bridge Camera vs DSLR: Panasonic Compact Camera Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Looks like a no-brainer to me unless one simply must have top quality (and pay many times more for it). Taking the Fz1000 along and something like a GR for some quality landscape shots would be an easy and pretty inexpensive combo by DSLR standards. No lens changing or kit bags in the back of dusty jeeps or wet boats. And the results would be fine for most uses, including printing up in a blurb.com type of book of your holiday, etc. I'm surprised the old incumbents aren't really trying in this direction, leaving it to newer outfits like Panny, Sony, Fuji and co. Good bridge cameras like this can be very appealing, I think.

01-03-2015, 09:05 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
See this post: FZ1000 on a Botswana Safari - Bridge Camera vs DSLR: Panasonic Compact Camera Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

Looks like a no-brainer to me unless one simply must have top quality (and pay many times more for it). Taking the Fz1000 along and something like a GR for some quality landscape shots would be an easy and pretty inexpensive combo by DSLR standards. No lens changing or kit bags in the back of dusty jeeps or wet boats. And the results would be fine for most uses, including printing up in a blurb.com type of book of your holiday, etc. I'm surprised the old incumbents aren't really trying in this direction, leaving it to newer outfits like Panny, Sony, Fuji and co. Good bridge cameras like this can be very appealing, I think.
To a quick view these images are even better then the first set I saw made with the 645Z in Afrika overhere.
01-03-2015, 10:55 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Very true and a camera Like the Panasonic FZ1000 with the 1" sensor and 25-400mm lens can do for the average holiday person anything they used to bring a dslr and 18-270mm lens for. Still not a small camera.
Yes, the FZ1000 would become the equivalent of a tele zoom while an additional camera like an RX100 would serve as a more standard walk around. And maybe, you'd even need a dedicated portrait camera ...

Thanks for the link. Yes, a simple equivalence back-of-the-envelope calculation hints at the same: An FZ1000 is not beaten by APSC tele zooms. However, more expensive and heavy tools like the new 150-600 Sigma full frame tele zoom would.
01-04-2015, 12:09 AM   #79
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As long as we're having this discussion on camera/lens future trends, I don't think there is any need to limit mirrorless designs to small bodies. Samsung has shown on the NX1 that given enough processing power, the screen lag after taking a shot can be shortened to such a small amount that its undetectable by eye. The advantages of mirrorless, such as high frame rates, less mechanical vibration, more body design freedom, less calibration requirements for phase AF, etc. are there for large cameras, even MF.

I find it interesting that the two companies, Sony and Samsung, that are the most competitive long term threat to Canikon, are both using only mirrorless designs.

01-04-2015, 06:19 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
As long as we're having this discussion on camera/lens future trends, I don't think there is any need to limit mirrorless designs to small bodies. Samsung has shown on the NX1 that given enough processing power, the screen lag after taking a shot can be shortened to such a small amount that its undetectable by eye. The advantages of mirrorless, such as high frame rates, less mechanical vibration, more body design freedom, less calibration requirements for phase AF, etc. are there for large cameras, even MF.

I find it interesting that the two companies, Sony and Samsung, that are the most competitive long term threat to Canikon, are both using only mirrorless designs.
If Canon and Nikon were starting out today, they too would use a mirrorless design.
01-04-2015, 03:01 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
If Canon and Nikon were starting out today, they too would use a mirrorless design.
If they had, one wouldn't dare speak out against mirrorless without having one's Canikon membership revoked on the spot

I'm sort of emotionally attached to ILC cameras and probably wouldn't like to see the end of them. We are still seeing a lot of improvements in sensor design that might thwart the lens/sensor combo idea for at least a little while longer - e.g. Sony's A7s and Samsung's NX1.
01-04-2015, 03:15 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
If Canon and Nikon were starting out today, they too would use a mirrorless design.
I am unclear. Do you mean that they would use a different mount with a shorter registration distance, or do you mean that they would keep the same mount, but just have an EVF instead of an OVF?
01-04-2015, 04:24 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
If Canon and Nikon were starting out today, they too would use a mirrorless design.
Starting out - if they were complete beginners, not knowing anything about real cameras you mean?

01-04-2015, 04:29 PM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I am unclear. Do you mean that they would use a different mount with a shorter registration distance, or do you mean that they would keep the same mount, but just have an EVF instead of an OVF?
I meant that if Canon and Nikon were new companies starting out today with a clean sheet of paper, like Lytro for example, they wouldn't choose or invent an OVF with a mechanical mirrorbox, surely. They'd do all-electronic. What register distance they'd choose, well who knows.
01-04-2015, 04:32 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I meant that if Canon and Nikon were new companies starting out today with a clean sheet of paper, like Lytro for example, they wouldn't choose or invent an OVF with a mechanical mirrorbox, surely. They'd do all-electronic. What register distance they'd choose, well who knows.
Maybe. Everyone seems to focus on the viewfinder, but the reality is that people buy into camera systems for the glass. This is the biggest negative on Sony's full frame line up -- the lack of native glass that works without an adapter. EVF versus OVF is a work in progress, but certainly it does seem to be moving in the direction of EVF, OVFs on full frame cameras are still awfully nice and don't seem to require much power to run.
01-04-2015, 04:56 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Maybe. Everyone seems to focus on the viewfinder, but the reality is that people buy into camera systems for the glass. This is the biggest negative on Sony's full frame line up -- the lack of native glass that works without an adapter. EVF versus OVF is a work in progress, but certainly it does seem to be moving in the direction of EVF, OVFs on full frame cameras are still awfully nice and don't seem to require much power to run.
I wonder whether people really do buy into camera systems for the glass. Some people do, of course, but does everyone? There may not be enough dedicated buyers of $$ glass to go round for all we know. I'm not sure the big camera system with scores of components and accessories can be relied on as a given in the years ahead, in the way Canon or Nikon have come to typify it. The cost and complication must be enormous. Suppose the market shrinks to the point where such ambitions are unsustainable. The market for cameras could develop or even break up in all sorts of ways. Aristophanes has suggested that Sony are engaging in a spot of vampirism. They know that a lot of their bodies are bought by people using Canonikon FF systems who have a lot of glass already and plan to use it with an adapter, so there is less heat on Sony to flesh out a system quickly. Buying that second (Sony) body simply sucks out $$$ that might otherwise be spent with Canonikon, on glass perhaps?

Last edited by mecrox; 01-04-2015 at 05:09 PM.
01-04-2015, 07:03 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I wonder whether people really do buy into camera systems for the glass. Some people do, of course, but does everyone? There may not be enough dedicated buyers of $$ glass to go round for all we know. I'm not sure the big camera system with scores of components and accessories can be relied on as a given in the years ahead, in the way Canon or Nikon have come to typify it. The cost and complication must be enormous. Suppose the market shrinks to the point where such ambitions are unsustainable. The market for cameras could develop or even break up in all sorts of ways. Aristophanes has suggested that Sony are engaging in a spot of vampirism. They know that a lot of their bodies are bought by people using Canonikon FF systems who have a lot of glass already and plan to use it with an adapter, so there is less heat on Sony to flesh out a system quickly. Buying that second (Sony) body simply sucks out $$$ that might otherwise be spent with Canonikon, on glass perhaps?
Well, the majority of people buy for price first. "My budget is 800 dollars, what's the best I can get for that price." With that in mind, you get a little better body and not as good glass.
01-05-2015, 10:56 AM   #88
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New numbers for november and the market keeps going down like we are now used to. The expectation for 2015 is seriously down (so that would mean down 20-25 % overall) I heard today.

http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201411_e.pdf

On the other hand all major Chinese smartphone manufactuars are reporting record sales for 2014! And expecting new hights for 2015!
01-05-2015, 11:08 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I wonder whether people really do buy into camera systems for the glass. Some people do, of course, but does everyone? There may not be enough dedicated buyers of $$ glass to go round for all we know. I'm not sure the big camera system with scores of components and accessories can be relied on as a given in the years ahead, in the way Canon or Nikon have come to typify it. The cost and complication must be enormous. Suppose the market shrinks to the point where such ambitions are unsustainable. The market for cameras could develop or even break up in all sorts of ways. Aristophanes has suggested that Sony are engaging in a spot of vampirism. They know that a lot of their bodies are bought by people using Canonikon FF systems who have a lot of glass already and plan to use it with an adapter, so there is less heat on Sony to flesh out a system quickly. Buying that second (Sony) body simply sucks out $$$ that might otherwise be spent with Canonikon, on glass perhaps?
Sony is like this great white shark that smells blood in the water. There was a lot of criticism in the past regarding Sony's e-mount zooms. The new roadmap shows 2nd generation Sony/Zeiss zoom lenses that i assume will offer better native optical performance. For most consumers, a native standard zoom and a native 70-200 F4 is generally what most need and can afford. Flesh that out with some legacy and macro primes and one has a nice package.

Specialists in wildlife and sports are still going to prefer Canikon, but there's not many of those to support a large camera company as you have pointed out.

There was a point in America where the family station wagon got labelled as old-fashioned, not-hip anymore. Ever since then, most car companies are reluctant to label or market a station wagon in this country. Well, Canikon's DSLRs are starting to have that old-fashioned look and feel to them; i expect the culture to turn against them in a sudden and impactful way. Very few people want to carry around the weight and size anymore. Sony (and Samsung for that matter) is systematically addressing and removing any camera/lens issues preventing their adoption by the mass market. They probably don't care that Nikon and Canon will continue to be the market leaders for $10-15,000 600 mm lenses.

(As to me, I just bought a VW Jetta Sportswagon but its really a station wagon . Needed it to carry around pictures)

Compare camera dimensions side by side (A7II versus D750)

http://camerasize.com/compare/#579,440 (A7II versus D7100)

Last edited by philbaum; 01-05-2015 at 11:43 AM.
01-05-2015, 11:43 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Sony is like this great white shark that smells blood in the water. There was a lot of criticism in the past regarding Sony's e-mount zooms. The new roadmap shows 2nd generation Sony/Zeiss zoom lenses that i assume will offer better native optical performance. For most consumers, a native standard zoom and a native 70-200 F4 is generally what most need and can afford. Flesh that out with some legacy and macro primes and one has a nice package.

Specialists in wildlife and sports are still going to prefer Canikon, but there's not many of those to support a large camera company as you have pointed out.

There was a point in America where the family station wagon got labelled as old-fashioned, not-hip anymore. Ever since then, most car companies are reluctant to label or market a station wagon in this country. Well, Canikon's DSLRs are starting to have that old-fashioned look and feel to them; i expect the culture to turn against them in a sudden and impactful way. Very few people want to carry around the weight and size anymore. Sony (and Samsung for that matter) is systematically addressing and removing any camera/lens issues preventing their adoption by the mass market. They probably don't care that Nikon and Canon will continue to be the market leaders for $10-15,000 600 mm lenses.

(As to me, I just bought a VW Jetta Sportswagon but its really a station wagon . Needed it to carry around pictures)

Compare camera dimensions side by side (A7II versus D750)

Compare camera dimensions side by side (A7II versus K3)
I do agree. Maybe in the end demographics will do it. Canon and Nikon will increasingly come to rely on a population of traditionally-minded, wealthy retirees for anything more tasty and costly than their basic stuff. Very, very few people have $$$ to spend on camera equipment to begin with so all those retired dentists will have to do the decent thing and get with the programme That audience's spending power will wane faster than the spending power of a younger audience which, being more familiar with things digital, will have fewer if any problems with all-electronic cameras. These will start to become the default choice for many. And, yes, a cultural change could push things along a lot faster but who knows. Many mirrorless cameras are still too expensive and for many folks just as complicated and disconnected from tablets and so forth as SLRs. That all needs to change too perhaps or maybe the young will simply shrug, pass up on any camera and put the money into a new smartphone. At least it will do what they want it to do.

Those big American station wagons are so golden era to me that they are almost due for a revival.
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