[ElJamoquio]

Having just seen pre-christmas price drops to $1500 for Nikon D610 and Canon 6D, I'm kicking myself again. If only I had originally chosen a different lens mount to invest in, I could be shooting an affordable FF camera using the native lens mount right now. And I find it less and less likely that Ricoh will bring a FF at all with competition like that. What specs or price could they now have to attract users of other mounts? And if all the market they could get is a fraction of the current K mount users, I don't think they'll see it as a viable option. Too bad.

I feel like, on the contrary, with the competition at $1500, Ricoh has to build a FF sooner rather than later.

What will be the first FF camera under $1k? How many DSLR's will be APS-C at that point?

[kooks]

What will be the first FF camera under $1k? How many DSLR's will be APS-C at that point?

Even at $1500/$1600 FF cameras are great price... when K3 went out i think it did at around $1200 ( am i correct?? ) so a FF body for $300 is lovely... The other thing is the glass.. mmmm thats the expensive part, but bodies are droping, Sony put some other cards on the table when they release the A7 A7ii at $1.5k price.

Im expecting that Pentax will have their FF at around the same price.. more less..

[Raffwal]

Im expecting that Pentax will have their FF at around the same price.. more less..

IF the mystical FF Pentax is ever coming, I'm pretty sure it will not be initially even close to that price point. They wouldn't be competing with the big names but rather providing a niche product or one for the long time (desperate) K mount users. MSRP $2200, street $2000.

[Kunzite]

No 135 digital camera was launched at $1500 (or below). The A7 and A7II were $1700, and that's the lowest. For that, special cost cutting measures were implemented - like light leaks, mostly plastic with just enough metal parts to claim "mag alloy" in marketing brochures, loose mounts... and of course some special engineering skills.
Ricoh Imaging most likely will not target the title of "cheapest", can you even remember when they last did that? (ignoring the 645 series, which plays by other rules). It's supposed to be a match for lenses like that 70-200 f/2.8...
And under $1000? More than $700 taken from build quality, mechanisms, electronics? No way.

[kooks]

. MSRP $2200, street $2000.

Could be.. between $1600 and $2000 on the street.. but no more than that.. Pentax have the cheapest MF right?? so why not the same with FF?? why not having a high end FF at a price like $1700?? hummmm that could be nice, really nice... besides, at the first release the company will need to catch as many costumers as it can... so 2nd 3rd and the upcoming releases will al ready have a base of potential buyers.. if more people is using Pentax FF when they start releasing new FF lenses this people will probably buy them.. so.. Why not?? ...

A mix of great price and good features are always a great combo

[Kunzite]

The 645 is a very special case: it's not like it's cheap, but the competition is extremely expensive (because they're operating in a very inefficient way). The 135 competition is in contrast extremely fierce; there's no way Pentax could make a high quality product which is cheaper, sells in lower volumes and it's their first entry in the 135 DSLR arena.
Besides, there will always be a cheaper product on the market - think street prices of old, discontinued models. Going after the "I want the cheapest" market just won't work.
OTOH, the enthusiasts willing to pay for a Pentax what it's worth...

[ElJamoquio]

And under $1000? More than $700 taken from build quality, mechanisms, electronics? No way.

I heard the same argument against $2500, and $2000, and $1500.

[Kunzite]

Really? From whom, and how exactly?
I was specifically talking about a "FF" camera supposedly being $700 cheaper than the cheapest "FF". At $1500 we're talking about $200 less than the cheapest; at $2000 and $2500, that's more than twice your "under $1000".

Do you know that after 5 years - since the A850 - the "cheapest FF" is now only $300 less? The A850 was announced for $2000, the A7 for $1700. And the A7 incorporated all that Sony could do in terms of cost savings... there are even 3rd-party reinforced mounts for it. Imagine another $700 of quality taken from that.

[JPT]

Ricoh as a company probably looks at the gap in their market in terms of pricing, so they will make the product to the price they want to sell it at. The gap between the K-3 and 645D is huge (roughly $1,000-$8,000). I think the whole point of FF from their perspective is to sell more high-value items. So I would expect them to offer a camera around $3,000 that compares favourably to the Nikon D800 and Canon 5D, just like the K-3 compares well to the Nikon D7100 and Canon 7D. I also expect some expensive lenses to come out, which will freak out many in this community but be completely in line with Canon and Nikon. Surely this is the whole point of the exercise - to sell high-end gear to high-spenders.

Having said that, they will need to have more than one body to make it viable, so I think they will also need to have something more affordable as bait for upgrades. They will also need the usual lenses and certain unprofitable, niche-filling lenses. The exciting thing is that if we do see Ricoh try to compete in the FF market, it implies so many new products and improvements that will benefit all K-mount users.

The interesting thing will be to see which elements come first. High-end, entry, or both at the same time? Lenses first, bodies after? The other concern is whether they give up on the idea of APS-C as a serious format, like Nikon seems to have done.

[normhead]

We have no idea what Ricoh looks at, we have no idea what they are thinking, except that engineering is pretty much done, the cost estimates are in from the sound of it. The only thing left, is do they produce it. But, it can obviously still be a yes or a no, and it will be that way, until there is a yes or a now. The question is, if Pentax has already decided no, would they tell us? Obviously if it's yes they will.

[ElJamoquio]

I was specifically talking about a "FF" camera supposedly being $700 cheaper than the cheapest "FF". At $1500 we're talking about $200 less than the cheapest; at $2000 and $2500, that's more than twice your "under $1000".

Oh. I was talking about a $1598 camera selling with a $498 lens.

Sony Alpha a7 Mirrorless Digital Camera with FE 28-70mm ILCE7K/B

Or body only for $1298.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1008114-REG/sony_ilce7_b_a7_mirrorless...al_camera.html

I don't know how you want to restrict the conversation but it's quite clear that FF's are now selling for $1298. Or $1598 with a free $498 lens. It's not intro price, but that wasn't what **I** was talking about.


Think about it... we're $300 away from a sub $1k full-frame camera right now. Gee whillikers.

[Kunzite]

For the sake of consistency and relevance I'd use MSRPs, rather than heavily discounted prices of already replaced cameras. And we can all see how the A7II was launched for the same price as its predecessor.
Otherwise, we had the "under $1000" camera for quite some time. Buying new is also a restriction, don't you agree?

[ElJamoquio]

For the sake of consistency and relevance I'd use MSRPs, rather than heavily discounted prices of already replaced cameras. And we can all see how the A7II was launched for the same price as its predecessor.
Otherwise, we had the "under $1000" camera for quite some time. Buying new is also a restriction, don't you agree?

I'm fine with the 'new'. I was never speaking of anything EXCEPT 'new'. Prices in the used market might be relevant to some but less so in the public-at-large outside of specialty forums like this one.

If you think people aren't going to cross-shop the A7 against the A7II or whatever the new Pentax is, I think you're under-estimating the ability of the public to optimize the value of their dollar.

And, no, I disagree completely with your assessment that MSRP's is more relevant than street price. On the contrary, I believe that the MSRP is a fantasy price that doesn't matter to anyone.


Today, you can purchase a brand-new full frame camera for $1298. Wow. That's $200 less than $1500. So when is the first brand new sub-$1k FF camera going to be sold? I heard that FF cameras wouldn't be sold for less than $2k.

[pudser]

SO.....I have taken the plunge and sold off all my APS-C Lens and K3 in anticipation of the elusive Full Frame finally arriving in the new year. I can wait a little because i have bought into the Sony FF e-mount system (an amazing line of cameras btw) but i will always keep a foot in the Pentax camp due to its unique characteristics and, frankly, nostalgia. Pentax was my first adventure into photography as a serious hobby and I love the colour rendition and the quality of the glass. Therefore i have retained my FA* 28mm-70mm, FA* 80-200MM, A* 15mm, A 300mm 2.8 and, of course, fabulous Limited duo the FA 31MM F1.8 & the FA 77MM F1.8 (plus a couple of teleconverters) all waiting for the highly anticipated FF camera. We have waited so long for this, its gotta be a killer cam!!! And, frankly, i like what Ricoh are doing with the company. They have some genuine photography kudos! (i have the GXR with m-mount module and a GR!, love 'em). Is anyone else preparing for the (hopefully)imminent arrival?????

[ElJamoquio]

SO.....I have taken the plunge and sold off all my APS-C Lens and K3 in anticipation of the elusive Full Frame finally arriving in the new year. I can wait a little because i have bought into the Sony FF e-mount system (an amazing line of cameras btw) but i will always keep a foot in the Pentax camp due to its unique characteristics and, frankly, nostalgia. Pentax was my first adventure into photography as a serious hobby and I love the colour rendition and the quality of the glass. Therefore i have retained my FA* 28mm-70mm, FA* 80-200MM, A* 15mm, A 300mm 2.8 and, of course, fabulous Limited duo the FA 31MM F1.8 & the FA 77MM F1.8 (plus a couple of teleconverters) all waiting for the highly anticipated FF camera. We have waited so long for this, its gotta be a killer cam!!! And, frankly, i like what Ricoh are doing with the company. They have some genuine photography kudos! (i have the GXR with m-mount module and a GR!, love 'em). Is anyone else preparing for the (hopefully)imminent arrival?????

I'm almost in the same boat. I have a Sony for Pentax FF (and Nikon and Canon...). I still have two K-5's and a 8-16 and a 55-300 that I should really sell, just haven't gotten around to it.