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01-09-2015, 11:49 AM   #76
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There really aren't bad cameras now. There are a group of photographers that think full frame is the way to go, others that think mirrorless APS-C, a la Fuji is a better way. Every camera is a group of compromises, as is every lens. In the end, quality, cost, size, speed of function all have to be balanced. If you get a 50 megapixel full frame sensor, it would be pretty amazing, but I am sure frame rate and buffer size would suffer as a result and cost would be really high.

In the end, each one of us chooses what works best, that we can also afford.

01-09-2015, 11:57 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
There really aren't bad cameras now. There are a group of photographers that think full frame is the way to go, others that think mirrorless APS-C, a la Fuji is a better way. Every camera is a group of compromises, as is every lens. In the end, quality, cost, size, speed of function all have to be balanced. If you get a 50 megapixel full frame sensor, it would be pretty amazing, but I am sure frame rate and buffer size would suffer as a result and cost would be really high.

In the end, each one of us chooses what works best, that we can also afford.
And most of us could spend about a bazillion on camera equipment, if a rich uncle died and left us a bazillion. "Honey why is the basement bedroom locked, what's the hum coming from it, and what happened to the bazillion dollars you inherited?"
01-09-2015, 12:04 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
4/3
I wouldn't mind having all three options in k-mount.

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
why does the K-3 seem to have better IQ in terms of resolution and micro-contrast?
Certainly not that my opinion should or will have any bearing in your mind (other than reinforcing your opinion hahaha), but I would for sure pick the right image in a blind taste test.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
that we can also afford.
And gauging by my current position I will have to be a mid to late adopter of RP FF by the time I have the money together, so there will be plenty of time for my fellow board members to persuade me either way in relation to what I expect (that it is going to be a must have camera for me).
01-09-2015, 12:22 PM   #79
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AH ha, the image on the right is the K-3, sorry, I messed up my labels.
The originals are available at Imaging Resources should you wish to do further comparisons, as I said, I'm kinda bored with this stuff. How many people do you have to show the FF images aren't any better before it starts to sink in?

01-09-2015, 03:29 PM - 2 Likes   #80
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What I say Norm says

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The only thing I always think is that jsherman will always speak for me, tell others what I say, and then argue with it. Did it ever occur to you, even once, that other people can decide what I said, without you interpreting for them? Did it ever occur to you other people may have even better reading comprehension skills than you do? What is it exactly you're thinking when you make up something you think I said and then ridicule it?
Here ^ Norm is saying that I (jsherman99) have made good points he can't refute at this time, so he'll take another tack to buy time.

QuoteQuote:
Where's the pay off? Are you seeking some kind of recognition? Some kind of respect? Trying to con people into taking you seriously (as if trashing what I've said will accomplish that?)
Here ^ Norm is saying that in spite of his momentary verbal paralysis, he's in awe of my insight and my willingness to share.

01-09-2015, 04:29 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
K-3 vs D750



Where are all these imperfections of which you speak?

D750 on the right, K-3 on the left < correction, K-3 image on the right>. And why does the K-3 seem to have better IQ in terms of resolution and micro-contrast?
Or maybe you have a better example, like the one you used to form your opinion?

Honestly, after all this time, this is simply getting to be too easy.



I used to spend hours comparing photos, looking at different ISOs etc. trying to come to fair conclusions. No one listened anyway, now just slap up a few images, let people do their own research, and the images do their own talking.
Can you please read through my post a few more times as I believe you don't understand what I wrote. Are those the same lenses and original sized photos. 100% crop do not represent the whole picture. Micro Contrast? Choose a FF that doesn't have an antialiasing filter if you want to use this term.
Do you honestly think that a crop sensor doesn't make the lenses' optical properties enlarged by a factor of around 1.5x.
You know that when you crop an image the sharpness is reduced right??
And if you have an aberations and you crop it it gets bigger looking right??
And if you have a speck on a sensor it appears smaller as the surface it's on is increased in area right??
Well if you answer no to any of these basic principles then I can't be bothered to help you understand.
I have a KX a K5 and a Sony A7 and I like them all...Im not saying aps-c cameras are bad I'm saying full frame makes higher quality images.

Last edited by Sliver-Surfer; 01-09-2015 at 06:33 PM.
01-09-2015, 05:32 PM   #82
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Question.. are there any fashion, portrait, sport or landscape ( national geographic kind ) PRO ( meaning famous or well known ) photographers out there that use currently APS-C as their primary/main system ??

Last edited by kooks; 01-09-2015 at 05:49 PM.
01-09-2015, 07:26 PM   #83
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A lot of professional photographers use full frame because it is well supported. That is why Canon and Nikon are so strong on the pro circuit. You can go to shops in large cities and rent an EF L 600mm f/4, so even though you don't actually own one, or left it at home. They may not need it today, tomorrow or even next month. But when and if they do it is available.

The next thing that a lot of pros need is a full selection of professional quality lenses, even zooms. Again, the big two have these issues covered.

And even pros are subject to peer pressure. If they show up on a job with Pentax, Fuji, Sony or whatever, it is likely that someone is going to question their selection of camera. Face it, everyone knows that Canon (or Nikon) are the pro equipment. I mean, they saw the advertisement when they were paging through the Nat Geo while waiting at the Doctor's office. If you are using something else then you probably aren't Nat Geo quality. And I want that quality photographing my project, or wedding, or whatever.

So, while I am sure there are some who use APS-C, the number is probably low. But not because the quality is lower.

01-09-2015, 08:05 PM   #84
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Mmm........whilst learning nothing new about FF or whatever ........... you can gleem a lot about the people posting by reading through this type of thread..........
01-09-2015, 08:34 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
Can you please read through my post a few more times as I believe you don't understand what I wrote. Are those the same lenses and original sized photos.
This site makes every effort to use the same lenses where possible. I think the Sigma 70 macro is one of their lenses, because it is available in many mounts.

QuoteQuote:
100% crop do not represent the whole picture. Micro Contrast? Choose a FF that doesn't have an antialiasing filter if you want to use this term.
Don't agree with that one, but hey, feel free to do it.

These are 1:1 crops.
QuoteQuote:
Do you honestly think that a crop sensor doesn't make the lenses' optical properties enlarged by a factor of around 1.5x.
I don't believe or disbelieve it, I have no need to, I look for difference I can see. I once did a comparison of the difference between a 24 MP and a and 36 MP camera, and the difference was something stupid for a 20x30 inch print, you'd have to be able to see a difference of .0008 inches to see a difference. I know people claim they can see it. Just no one seems to be able to do it in a blind test.

QuoteQuote:
You know that when you crop an image the sharpness is reduced right??
K-3 images are very sharp cropped 1:1, so I'm not sure what you're talking about there.



QuoteQuote:
And if you have an aberations and you crop it it gets bigger looking right??
Everyone tells me post processing gets rid o CA. Personally I try and buy corrected lenses so I don't have to deal with it. But say I have lens with .4 pixel CA, which is what I aim for, now your CA is .6 pixel. Still well below what you're likely to detect with the naked eye.

QuoteQuote:
And if you have a speck on a sensor it appears smaller as the surface it's on is increased in area right??
Learn to keep your sensor clean, it's a big thing.


QuoteQuote:
Well if you answer no to any of these basic principles then I can't be bothered to help you understand.
I have a KX a K5 and a Sony A7 and I like them all...Im not saying aps-c cameras are bad I'm saying full frame makes higher quality images.
And I'm saying an A-7 is better than a K-5 just based on resolution, so while i agree with you that an A-7 should take better pictures than a k-5, it's not because one is FF and one is APS-c.

Here's a comparison.... A7 to K-3


In this case, the A7 FF does give you the better image, in my judgement.... so congratulations on a fine choice.... whether or not we want to pay the big bucks for so small an improvement... that's the personal decision thing we all make. Most of the time, differences of this magnitude are not discernible in anything but pixel peeping. And in this example you can actually see purple fringing in both images but magnified in the K-3 image. However the same fringing is not apparent in their D7100 image, so it's not an FF vs AAPS-c thing, but an iusse with that K-3 and that lens. So, all your points are addressed, and we can see exactly what you're talking about. This set of images works for you, not every APS-c FF does.

When I think of the Sony cameras I always think A7r for more resolution or A7s for less noise at high ISO, why did you choose to go with the A7?

Last edited by normhead; 01-10-2015 at 07:20 AM.
01-09-2015, 10:26 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
The only advantage of an aps-c is size and price. Hands down FF is better on all levels. You put a the same fa lens on both and your abberations, motion blur, sensor dust, softness, and noise are all blown up by 1.5x on an aps-c sensor. Saying a 24mp vs 24mp is not very useful comparison because when Pentax puts out its FF I will bet you a coffee its going to be higher mp than the aps-c sensor of Pentax s newest aps-c camera.
My original post the only advantage is size and price. You leave price out of the picture and the best FF is better than the best Aps-c and the worst FF is better than the worst Apc-s.

QuoteQuote:
When I think of the Sony cameras I always think A7r for more resolution or A7s for less noise at high ISO, why did you choose to go with the A7?
Dirt cheap FF I bought gen 1 as soon as it came out. Reason: easy to adapt to my manual lens Collection. I would buy another A7 if needed because A7s is geared to Video and A7r is slow.
01-10-2015, 07:43 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
My original post the only advantage is size and price. You leave price out of the picture and the best FF is better than the best Aps-c and the worst FF is better than the worst Apc-s.
Well, you and I are just going to have to differ on that point. Within the area of the crop sensor, the 24 MP APS-c gives you more resolution than a 24 or even 36 MP FF. So in specific images, like macro and telephoto work, there can be many instances where you get a superior image using APS-c. And because you have to stop down to achieve the same DoF, meaning higher ISO, in many images by the time you've achieved the same DOF with an FF, you've lost your noise advantage, and the images are virtually identical. On many images on the Imaging Resources test site, the APS-c image appears to be the better image, because of the wider DoF at the same ƒ-stop.

IN actual practice, from what I can see, you can have superior images produced by either format based on the particular circumstance of each image. I see many images where the FF is the superior image, and I see other instances where the APS-c is the superior image. There are many factors other than sensor size that contribute to that.

And realistically, you should expect that. IN sports a better team will often win two out of three games. But they lose one out of the three. The circumstances of that particular game in some way favoured the weaker team. People want to dream about owning some camera that is just better in every situation, that will always win 3 out of 3. It's an unrealistic expectation and examination of various test images shows it's unrealistic. My own inspection of images is pretty random, but, when looking at the FF vs APS-c issue, sometimes the FF wins, sometimes the APS-c wins. I'm not finding this monolithic "one is always better" scenario that you describe. In fact even with in one area of an image, one can be better and one can be worse, when the same is not true in a different part of the picture.

To me, this need to be able to latch onto a format, and say, "this will always give me the best image" is almost a religious kind of statement. It's a firmly held belief, as much an act of faith as it is a technical evaluation. Unless of course you're comparing a K-5 to an A7, where the systems are different generations of technology to start with.

And that would certainly be part of my point. There are many factors that contribute to IQ and not all of them favour the larger sensor. Clearly the noise reduction/amplifiction systems involved in image capture, lens sample variation, lens design, etc. play a part. To try and say sensor size is the defining issue... and you can judge what kind of picture you're going to get by looking at the sensor size, or determine in advance what camera is going to give you the best image based on sensor size... I don't believe it. The evidence I've seen leads me away from that kind of conclusion. Other factors matter as much or more.

Last edited by normhead; 01-10-2015 at 07:58 AM.
01-10-2015, 08:17 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pioneer Quote
Face it, everyone knows that Canon (or Nikon) are the pro equipment. I mean, they saw the advertisement when they were paging through the Nat Geo while waiting at the Doctor's office. If you are using something else then you probably aren't Nat Geo quality. And I want that quality photographing my project, or wedding, or whatever.
Does that mean people won't take you seriously if you are shooting a Haselblad, Leica, or a 645z? I know there is truth to your statement. I have a good friend who is a pro wedding phtog. A year or so after going full time he felt the need to go from high end Canon aps-c to the 5d series. Not because the camera was inadequate, but because they were running into a lot of clients who used the same camera that he was using. I think that is less of a problem shooting Pentax due to the relative obscurity of the brand.
01-10-2015, 08:56 AM - 1 Like   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sliver-Surfer Quote
My original post the only advantage is size and price. You leave price out of the picture and the best FF is better than the best Aps-c and the worst FF is better than the worst Apc-s.

Dirt cheap FF I bought gen 1 as soon as it came out. Reason: easy to adapt to my manual lens Collection. I would buy another A7 if needed because A7s is geared to Video and A7r is slow.
You are right, in a vacuum. The question is how much difference you will see in real world shooting. The answer, as far as I can tell is that you need to be at the extremes -- printing really big, at really high iso, or trying to get really narrow depth of field to see much difference. In addition, I don't believe that you can see a big difference in normal print size between 24 megapixel APS-C and 24 megapixel full frame in most shooting situations.

Leaving price out of the picture is ignoring the elephant in the room. If entry level APS-C gives you ninety percent of mid level full frame shooting, then i am hard pressed to recommend to any hobbyist photographer to "go full frame." Cameras like the K50 or, the D5200 are pretty amazing for what they are and really do exceptionally well in most shooting situations.

It is easy on the forum to argue for better in the face of good enough, but the reality is that for a photographer who is taking photos of their kids in every day situations, who doesn't have a bunch of money, and who is never going to print 30 inches on a side, full frame is not a good way for them to invest their photography dollar.

Last edited by Rondec; 01-10-2015 at 09:45 AM.
01-10-2015, 09:12 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
but the reality is that for a photographer who is taking photos of their kids in every day situations,
In addition to that reality there is another. In my not so humble opinion, the majority of photographers whose major source of income is not photography* (READ: amature enthusiast or "professioinal" by virtue of selling an occasional photograph) want a FF for one of two reasons:
a. They think it will make them a better photographer.
or
b. They think it will make others think they are a better photographer.

* I believe the "People won't hire me if I don't use FF or MF" argument has merit.

Last edited by Parallax; 01-10-2015 at 09:26 AM.
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