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01-10-2015, 09:20 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
...but the reality is that for a photographer who is taking photos of their kids in every day situations, who doesn't have a bunch of money, and who is never going to print 30 inches on a side, full frame is not a good way for them to invest their photography dollar...
This is so true, and many people just completely forget about it. Most camera users will never use their gear for more than viewing the images on a screen, let alone for paid clients, which is where we should be invested in delivering the best we can... And on a professional environment, each tool has its use, its strong and not so strong points, and it's up to the professional to decide the appropriate one for the type of job he/she will need it for, so, for some FF is the best tool, and for others an APS-C is the way to go.

01-10-2015, 09:21 AM   #92
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For myself, going for a year to school to learn photography, the first thing I noticed was, 1. my work was as good as anybody's 2. I seemed to have an ambivalence to playing the "sales" game, promoting myself as a photographer, using every party as an opportunity to hand out my cards, buying the right cameras to impress my clientele.

I was good as a photographer, I was going to be an absolutely atrocious business man.

SO I quit and did something else.

But I've always been aware of the difference between taking great pictures, and being a successful pro-photographer. I admire those guys, they have a certain hustle that I just lack. But talking to enthusiasts, there is absolutely no reason to follow that path. You don't have to impress clients to earn a living, and you can take great pictures with what ever camera you choose.

Advice related to many aspects of being a pro-photographer are simply irrelevant on an enthusiast site.

Last edited by normhead; 01-10-2015 at 09:52 AM.
01-10-2015, 09:21 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
In addition to that reality there is another. In my not so humble opinion, the majority of photographers whose major source of income is not photography* (READ: amature enthusiast or "professioinal" by virtue of selling an occasional photograph) want a FF for one of two reasons:
a. They think it will make them a better photographer.
or
b. They think it will make others think they are a better photographer.

* I believe the "People won't hire me if I don't use FF or MF" argument is valid
This pretty sums up the entire argument that has raged on for almost a decade now. Seriously.
01-10-2015, 09:22 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You are right, in a vacuum. The question is how much difference you will see in real world shooting. The answer, as far as I can tell is that you need to be at the extremes -- printing really big, at really high iso, or trying to get really narrow depth of field to see much difference. In addition, I don't believe that you can see a big difference in print size between 24 megapixel APS-C and 24 megapixel full frame in most shooting situations.

Leaving price out of the picture is ignoring the elephant in the room. If entry level APS-C gives you ninety percent of mid level full frame shooting, then i am hard pressed to recommend to any hobbyist photographer to "go full frame." Cameras like the K50 or, the D5200 are pretty amazing for what they are and really do exceptionally well in most shooting situations.

It is easy on the forum to argue for better in the face of good enough, but the reality is that for a photographer who is taking photos of their kids in every day situations, who doesn't have a bunch of money, and who is never going to print 30 inches on a side, full frame is not a good way for them to invest their photography dollar.
OK but by that argument your camera on your phone is the best format, or a PS camera that you can pocket. Most people don't use DSLRs.

01-10-2015, 09:24 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
In addition to that reality there is another. In my not so humble opinion, the majority of photographers whose major source of income is not photography* (READ: amature enthusiast or "professioinal" by virtue of selling an occasional photograph) want a FF for one of two reasons:
a. They think it will make them a better photographer.
or
b. They think it will make others think they are a better photographer.

* I believe the "People won't hire me if I don't use FF or MF" argument is valid
In most cases, I believe that option 'b' is the reality in their minds... How many times, when I had the D90 + battery grip and a 70-210/4, would people approach me and said something like: "Wow, what a great camera you have..."
01-10-2015, 09:27 AM - 2 Likes   #96
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How about a FF (better yet MF) that had zero noise at any ISO, had a smart meter that didn't require any interpretation of the scene on my part, had DOF shallow enough put a freckle in focus and blur the skin behind it, nailed focus 100% of the time and cost about as much as a K-3? Sounds great, doesn't it?
I wouldn't want one. What would I blame my crappy shots on?
01-10-2015, 09:28 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Flugelbinder Quote
In most cases, I believe that option 'b' is the reality in their minds... How many times, when I had the D90 + battery grip and a 70-210/4, would people approach me and said something like: "Wow, what a great camera you have..."
Isn't that amazing... or "that's a really nice lens," when I brought along my Sigma 70-300. You feel like saying, "well actually it's big but it's not expensive, or even all that good, this is the lens I bring when the light is nothing special, I'm not going to get a good picture, and I just want something easy to carry, just in case ", but you just smile and nod, and go back to what you were doing.

Or the people who look at my DA*60-250, and say, "that's a really nice looking lens, is that a full frame?" I really should just say "yes", and let them live with their assumptions. I always go with the long explanation.

I once had a couple come over and ask me what I was shooting, I said "Pentax" and they looked terribly disappointed. He was shooting Nikon, she was shooting Canon, they were looking for someone to break the tie. I just made it a 3 way tie instead of a 2-1 advantage for one of them. From the looks on their faces, I could tell, that was terribly disappointing. , of course right after that the next question was "Is that a full frame?"

I just couldn't seem to stop disappointing these people.

I think if I would have had a Nikon or Canon full frame with a big honking lens, I would have had admirers, Facebook followers etc. as it was, I completely failed to live up to their expectations.

Last edited by normhead; 01-10-2015 at 09:53 AM.
01-10-2015, 09:35 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
"that's a really nice looking lens, is that a full frame?"
Next time tell them "No. I have enough experience and have done enough research to not buy into that hype".

01-10-2015, 09:36 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Next time tell them "No. I have enough experience and have done enough research to not buy into that hype".
Hey , I'm still adding to my post, you're interrupting.
01-10-2015, 09:39 AM   #100
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Sorry.


01-10-2015, 09:40 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
Sorry.


It's ok, just don't let it happen again.

OK, I'm done, you can interrupt now...

Last edited by normhead; 01-10-2015 at 09:51 AM.
01-10-2015, 09:52 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
...but you just smile and nod, and go back to what you were doing. ...


...I once had a couple come over and ask me what I was shooting, I said "Pentax" and they looked terribly disappointed. He was shooting Nikon, she was shooting Canon, they wee looking for someone to break the tie. I just made it a 3 way tie instead of a 2-1 advantage for one of them. From the looks on their faces, I could tell, that was terribly disappointing. , of course right after that the next question was "Is that a full frame?"
Exactly

This I've yet to experience, since I only have it for a couple of weeks, it's been really cold and I'm a stay-at-home dad, but next weekend I'll be shooting a 65th birthday, so we'll see how it goes. But I'm pretty sure I'll enjoy those moments of 'exclusivity'...
01-10-2015, 09:54 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
OK, I'm done, you can interrupt now..
How can I interrupt if you're done? confused2
01-10-2015, 09:55 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Parallax Quote
How can I interrupt if you're done? :confused2:
There you go getting all semantical on me again.

Respond to what I mean, not to what I type.

And don't say anything like 'That sounds like something my wife would say." Wives everywhere would take offence, and we don't want that.
01-10-2015, 10:43 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
And don't say anything like 'That sounds like something my wife would say."
Apparently, I don't need to.
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