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02-12-2015, 07:29 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
My sense is this one is targeted at professional photographers. It will probably be priced at the high end of expectations. high enough that there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth on this (and every other) Pentax Forum.

My sense is there will eventually be another FF targeted at the teeth gnashers.
Everything I've seen about this camera so far screams pro grade. It won't be cheap, and as I said previously, it needs to fit between the K3 and the 645z in the line-up...

02-12-2015, 07:40 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by cfraz Quote
And Ricoh will lose $1000 on every one they sell. Are you going to spot them the $1000 per camera so they can follow this amazing strategy? If not you, who will do such a thing?
Seriously? $3000 FF cameras have NO markup? They often sell APS-C cameras for <50% of MSRP, are they loosing money on each one? No, $2000 doesn't strike me as impossible if they are willing to loss lead to gain market share and view their lenses as their main vehicle for profit.
02-12-2015, 07:55 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Seriously? $3000 FF cameras have NO markup? They often sell APS-C cameras for <50% of MSRP, are they loosing money on each one? No, $2000 doesn't strike me as impossible if they are willing to loss lead to gain market share and view their lenses as their main vehicle for profit.
What I suppose we don't know is the price Ricoh charges at the factory loading dock. $3,000 isn't the loading dock price. It includes the markup at the <division.Ricoh-Imaging> warehouse door (to pay for people and services) and the markup at <retailer.com> warehouse door to pay for people and services.

If MSRP is $2,000 it isn't necessarily any loss of revenue to Ricoh - other than the fact that no one would actually offer the camera for sale in their stores / on their websites.

why don't they sell 645Z's for $4,000? I mean really, @ $8,000 there's no markup?

Last edited by Ash; 02-12-2015 at 02:11 PM. Reason: expletive
02-12-2015, 08:07 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
What I suppose we don't know is the price Ricoh charges at the factory loading dock. $3,000 isn't the loading dock price. It includes the markup at the <division.Ricoh-Imaging> warehouse door (to pay for people and services) and the markup at <retailer.com> warehouse door to pay for people and services.

If MSRP is $2,000 it isn't necessarily any loss of revenue to Ricoh - other than the fact that no one would actually offer the camera for sale in their stores / on their websites.

FFS, why don't they sell 645Z's for $4,000? I mean really, @ $8,000 there's no markup?
Ah, but they DID underbid every other MF maker with their pricing and still seem to be in business. My point exactly is that the material increase to the cost for the FF is the sensor as many other pieces APPEAR at this stage to be off-the-shelf. If that it true, and they take the same strategy they did in MF (which they appear to be winning BTW) then why would they price at the same point as the competition?

02-12-2015, 08:28 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Ah, but they DID underbid every other MF maker with their pricing and still seem to be in business. My point exactly is that the material increase to the cost for the FF is the sensor as many other pieces APPEAR at this stage to be off-the-shelf. If that it true, and they take the same strategy they did in MF (which they appear to be winning BTW) then why would they price at the same point as the competition?
I think that would be very different if Canon/Nikon were in the MF game.
02-12-2015, 08:46 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Ah, but they DID underbid every other MF maker with their pricing and still seem to be in business
Compared to a HAssy, which is a 'for life' investment, 645z is a throw-away camera.
02-12-2015, 08:55 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by GabrielFFontes Quote
Hey guys, how is it going?
I've been thinking about jumping ship, but the new fullframe made me kind of want to stay, even though i never really seeked a fullframe camera.
Just so i can have an idea, do you guys have any ideas of the price, something Pentax might have said that i didn't read?
Thanks
The only rumor I've heard say it's going to be around $2100...it's a speculation at this point..
02-12-2015, 09:30 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by SimonomiS Quote
I think that would be very different if Canon/Nikon were in the MF game.
Perhaps but they're not and Pentax went in, took the hill, and is holding it with their "throw away" MF camera. I think they will take the same tactic with FF, even if it is a tougher nut to crack.

02-12-2015, 10:53 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
That is not all they seek, but the reason Ricoh bought Pentax was the user pool locked in all those K-mount lenses. They are all potential customers. Starting an all new SLR system from scratch is a far less tempting prospect.
They want money and to make the brand a top brand as Canikons.. As I said in order to do that they will need to attract as many people as possible, not just old Pentax guys with $50 vintage. lenses that perhaps don't even need a FF because many of the ones that wanted one already switch to Canikons or Sony and use all this glass . So what is the target?? Pros? Well they already have their D810 or 5Ds + a lot of money invested in lenses, so what is the target here??? .. Pentax could sponsor some pros here but not at the same level as the other brands.. They need $$$$$ fast.

Part of the great success of the 645Z is the price compared with the other brands... Could this selling success be the same if they released the 645Z at the price of Hasselblad or PhaseOne?? Mmmmmmmm...
02-12-2015, 10:59 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
They want money and to make the brand a top brand as Canikons.. As I said in order to do that they will need to attract as many people as possible, not just old Pentax guys with $50 vintage. lenses that perhaps don't even need a FF because many of the ones that wanted one already switch to Canikons or Sony and use all this glass . So what is the target?? Pros? Well they already have their D810 or 5Ds + a lot of money invested in lenses, so what is the target here??? .. Pentax could sponsor some pros here but not at the same level as the other brands.. They need $$$$$ fast.

Part of the great success of the 645Z is the price compared with the other brands... Could this selling success be the same if they released the 645Z at the price of Hasselblad or PhaseOne?? Mmmmmmmm...

You still seem to think that price is arbitrary. You cannot compare the MF marked with the smaller format DSLR marked. Pentax competitors in the MF marked are backyards companies compared to Pentax. They sell a few thousand units a year that has to cover all the cost. Pentax literally sell million camera. They pay the rent. The developing cost of the 645 bodies, and the technology that goes into them, is paid for by cameras that sell in the hundred of thousands. The Pentax 645z is probably very profitable for Pentax.
In FF they compete with Nikon and Canon who sells such cameras in much higher volumes than Pentax. Pentax has no price leverage and they are into this business in order to make money....
02-12-2015, 01:28 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
You still seem to think that price is arbitrary.
is not that price is arbitrary.. but it have to be realistic, Pentax can not compete at the same prices as Canon/Nikon in bodys simply becasue there are not enough buyers at that level.. there are hardly enough buyers for Canikons do you think that there are going to be some for Pentax? hell no... What is the higest price that a K-mount came out?? $1300?? there is no recent Pentaxian that payed more than that, this people is not used to pay for bodys taht expensive, and it takes time to build that culture... If they release an expensive body to sell just a FEW cameras i dont think that they would even care to develop this camera.. Not after Ricoh said that they want to grow in the FF market. With a $3000 + body and $2000 + lenses do you think that they are going to grow as they want??.. time is against Ricoh ... Prices have to be justifided but realistic for the time and market.. Pentax at this time have ZERO, NOTHING, NADA, NINGUN market at FF they will start from almost zero ( talking about people shooting FF, not lenses), and if they want to survive this price matter have to be taken care thinking about the present and the future. I do think that they can release a 2nd body wtih a $3000 release price, but not before building a FF base that will buy this new body, something that they just dont have now.
02-12-2015, 03:01 PM - 1 Like   #57
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This new FF has some costs to it. I gues the biggest one is de R&D on the new SR system for the larger and heavier sensormodule. Also more expensive is that sensormodule, but if it is one used also by sony/nikon then the cost for it will be modest (compared to a special design for Pentax only).

So how about the rest. I think the cost to make the camera would be just fractional more expensive then the K-3. Most parts are about the same, AF-module, magnesium alloy body and so on.

So can you make an estimate about the price........? Well it all depends on the numbers of sales that you project for the lifespan of this camera. For $2000 you have more customers then for $3000. Is that giving a profit...... No one knows. You know it at the end of the 3-4 years lifespan.
02-12-2015, 04:05 PM   #58
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Let's put it like this.. in the case that they release this body at the price of the D810 / 5Dmk3 ( $3000 just body ), what is going to happen?

1- just a really few Pentax shooters will buy it
2- most of the people around here will wait untill the price drops ( and it also depends how low it drops )
3- Pros will say.. ok Pentax have a new body at the same price with almost the same features of the D810.. WHY will I buy it if is not giving me a really strong reason to do it??
4- People that doesnt have a FF ( Canon/Nikon/Sony ) dont tend to buy the flagshit at once, most of them ( and we can see it at this forum ) buy a Sony A7.. or a F610.. and some few will buy a D750..
5- The inventory ( FF body + FF lenses ) will rotate SLOOOWWW.. and that doenst help in nothing to a company.
6- Each retailer will have to invest a lot of $$$$$ in order to have some FF bodys and lenses... and WHO will buy their products if there is no market?? and the FF body price is not attractive at all?

This is all about sales.. no sales = no money ... they have to sell it, and to sell it smart and fast.. not in a couple of years when the lenses and FF boxes are all full of spiders and dust.. they need to be in everybodys mouth from the very fist day that they announce that this camera is available to the public.


BUT.. nobody knows.. we'll see.. i just hope that they dont do the mistake of releasing this at a price that their market wont buy ( at least not until a few years )...
02-12-2015, 04:47 PM   #59
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I would think they should have at least one feature that sets them apart from the competition. Either some technology nobody else has or a cheaper price. Considering how late they are to the FF market they better have something up their sleeve.

Otherwise it will be very difficult.
02-12-2015, 04:47 PM   #60
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The problem is they can price it however they want. The fact is that they need to get the sales staff on board with selling the product. Not regional guys, but the sales staff on the front lines in the showrooms of Best Buy, B&H, Adorama, McBain, Henry's....etc. If those people are not excited about the product and showing it off as a valid alternative to the Nikony lines then there is no point if its $1500 or $4000.

You will have the people that do research online before wandering into the store, but many will not research objectively and only look at the big two + Sony. The big 2 get customers because well... Nikon/Canon. Sony gets them because they have a unique product, which is very obvious.

Pentax will have some unique advantages in this market space, but with the average consumer jump on them if they don't know about the system. They may inquire, but if the sales staff are not educated then Pentax will die at the showroom floor.

In my opinion, Pentax should wine and dine as many store/department managers as they can in as many stores as they can (not just a couple per region). They should then introduce a spiff program where sales staff will get bonuses on selling people on a Pentax FF. They also need to get a fully operational demo unit in the hands of the guys of The Camera Store TV ASAP! Those guys are already Pentax fans and are in love with the 645z... show them what the new Pentax can do and they will be all over it.


I have incredible rapport with my local shop, I'm known as the Pentax guy and I've educated them on K3 more than anyone else. They didn't even know about the Moire function until about 6 months ago. They sold a ton of K3's right off the bat, but sales have been less than impressive over the past few months as they usually recommend things like the EM1, D7100, 7DMKII instead.

I think having it competitively priced will be one of the keys but not the only ones. They already messed that up with the 70-200 f2.8 not pricing it competitively compared to the Nikon/Canon counterparts, especially without built in VR (yes, it's in camera, but people won't see that right away). That lens should be $2000 street, not $2300. I know it's not a big difference, but it's enough to maybe raise an eyebrow or two.

We still have no idea what the internal specs are and what shooter they are going after. Are they targeting the high-resolution landscape/fashion photographers, or the quick AF/burst/lower resolution sports and wedding photographers? It's obvious they are going after the pro market.... could they find the happy medium and offer a 36mp sensor that can scale back to a 24mp and 16mp raw without cropping and with significant jumps in buffer/fps for those resolutions?
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