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02-14-2015, 07:36 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
What if they develop an AF sensor for the FF and then put it in the next K-3?
I hope that is one of the big benefits of full frame to the Pentax system. Create better system components that filter down to the affordable level, including APS-C

02-14-2015, 08:19 AM   #47
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I just wonder how well such an auto focus module would fit in an APS-C camera. Either it would have poor full frame coverage or it wouldn't fit in the crop camera. That doesn't say they couldn't use what they learned on the full frame to make the crop better. I just don't think a lot of the stuff is directly portable between the two.
02-14-2015, 09:12 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I just wonder how well such an auto focus module would fit in an APS-C camera. Either it would have poor full frame coverage or it wouldn't fit in the crop camera. That doesn't say they couldn't use what they learned on the full frame to make the crop better. I just don't think a lot of the stuff is directly portable between the two.
If you put in a module with, say, 50ish sensors, that covers the full APS-C area, you would get a pretty reasonable coverage on FF. IMHO. It wouldn't go to the edges, but it wouldn't suck.

Also keep in mind that the sensor may have on sensor AF points, just because those are now common-ish because of mirrorless. That way you can have more AF points in Live View, if needed.
02-14-2015, 10:11 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
This is funny... (and make sense ?)... why would I wait until Pentax come out with FF before I decide to buy a Canikon FF model. I could have bought it now... and many to choose from.
because.... one think Pentax FF will be cheaper than CaNikon offering? when they see the pricing and the new lenses price, they finally realize the cost to buy pentax ff is the same as buying CaNikon.

02-14-2015, 11:01 AM - 1 Like   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by LFLee Quote
because.... one think Pentax FF will be cheaper than CaNikon offering? when they see the pricing and the new lenses price, they finally realize the cost to buy pentax ff is the same as buying CaNikon.
Totally correct... if prices are high people will compare every single detail with the others.. AF speed, performance, buffer, IQ, after selling support, flash system, LENSES, resale price, etc, etc, etc .. That could make it not such an attractive thing as buying a Canikon that could fill all their needs. Lets face it, people that had the cash to buy another system already did it, they are shooting Canikons.. and some others that wanted to use old lenses are shooting A7.

This is why the price factor of the FF body is going to be REALLY important for this system to grow.. I really dont want to see if as a just one time release, i'll love to see mk2s mk3s etc.. but without an attractive price sales might not be that good, Pentax users are not used to pay that much for bodys/lenses ... you can see it at the Bodget topic here.. most of the people is willing to pay around $2000.. And this is supposed to be a place for hard Pentax users, people that really like the brand...
02-14-2015, 11:10 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Pentax users are not used to pay that much for bodys/lenses ... you can see it at the Bodget topic here.. most of the people is willing to pay around $2000.. And this is supposed to be a place for hard Pentax users, people that really like the brand...
Yes, there remains in the USA a large group who view Pentax gear as 'inexpensive but good enough' relative to other brands, a remnant of the failed Hoya 'Big Box' strategy.

But if I'm not mistaken, Ricoh sells more Pentax gear in Japan than in the entire rest of the world combined. For the time being they may intend to make cameras and lenses to suit their Japanese buyers, who are rabid and loyal Pentax owners.

Ricoh has openly stated they intend to change the relationship between price and value for Pentax as a brand. The value going forward (from the K5II on) will be the core Pentax identity markers, continuously improving technology, and higher-level features at each price point than the competition offers. Yet they have a ways to go before ALL of their technology is competitive with the best offered by their competition. They'll get there - but maybe they're not quite there yet.

It is entirely possible, and reasonable to assume, that Ricoh would release the initial FF as a 'halo product' or 'marker product' and then another FF shortly thereafter at a lower price-point. The camera you have suggested might be in Ricoh's playbook, but they might not intend to use that play in the opening series of downs.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-14-2015 at 12:11 PM.
02-15-2015, 11:14 AM   #52
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03-17-2015, 10:33 AM   #53
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My photographic passion is wild animals (from insects to monkeys) and my professional life puts me in locations where shooting puts equipment at risk, especially tropical rainforests. I moved to Pentax from Canon because of the weather and dirt sealing of the K3 and WR lenses, and the rock solid construction of the K3 (can't say the same about the construction of the relevant WR lenses, which are mostly compromised by the lack of internal focusing and zooming).

In many ways I have been pleased by the switch, but I was shocked at how far behind Pentax is with respect to dynamic flash metering (e.g. TTL). I assumed Pentax would have something good, with some pros and cons compared to Canon. Nope. In this regard, Pentax is a quarter century behind the competition. For many pros and sophisticated enthusiasts, this probably seems like a minor issue. But for wildlife photographers it isn't, especially in the dark, wet habitats where Pentax should be the runaway leader.

For better or worse, shots from rainforest habitats sell camera equipment, perhaps because they imply the ability to shine in photographically challenging circumstances, so Ricoh/Pentax can't afford to let this slide as it makes its bid to join the big pro brands.

I suspect the lack of a modern flash system will be a deal breaker for many of the customers Ricoh would like to win back--no one wants to adopt a new system that misses shots one would have bagged with their previous brand.

I would therefore advocate for modern flash on the FF, and the next pro APS-C camera too. I'm guessing I will not be alone in using an APS-C camera as a second body. Using it as a dedicated macro-body would be a natural, in my case, but for the cruddy flash metering.

03-17-2015, 12:39 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Why not just buy a Canon? I'm not being snarky - it's a real question.

$2,000 is an entry level FF camera (List) price at introduction. Certainly the street price for an entry level FF camera is 25% lower at end-of-product-cycle.
Currently the 6D is $1399. I've seen it as low as $1249 with the big printer combo. I talked myself out of that as the 10-year old 5D I got last year is still working - of course that has no video.

If you did not have much Pentax glass it could be an option.
03-17-2015, 02:13 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by BretW Quote
For better or worse, shots from rainforest habitats sell camera equipment,
Pentax marketing seem very aware of this


QuoteOriginally posted by BretW Quote
I was shocked at how far behind Pentax is with respect to dynamic flash metering ... no one wants to adopt a new system that misses shots one would have bagged with their previous brand.
I'm curious about this. What is it about P-TTL vs E-TTL that is different? On paper, there seems not much difference. Pentax now uniquely offers a full line-up of WR flashes, so that's gotta count for something.
03-18-2015, 12:16 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I'm curious about this. What is it about P-TTL vs E-TTL that is different? On paper, there seems not much difference. Pentax now uniquely offers a full line-up of WR flashes, so that's gotta count for something.
I can't tell you why E-TTL is so much less effective, but I can tell you that is empirically way behind. Pentax E-TTL flash regularly misses the mark and delivers a shot that is either obviously flash-illuminated, or under exposed. Canon's TTL was, in contrast, like magic. It routinely hit the mark, even back before DSLR. And pre-flash--even if it chose the right level of exposure--is obviously inferior for anything that isn't holding still.

Yes, water proof flashguns are nice, but the fact is, I don't trust them enough to get much from the weatherproofing.
03-28-2015, 09:25 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by BretW Quote
In many ways I have been pleased by the switch, but I was shocked at how far behind Pentax is with respect to dynamic flash metering (e.g. TTL). I assumed Pentax would have something good, with some pros and cons compared to Canon. Nope. In this regard, Pentax is a quarter century behind the competition. For many pros and sophisticated enthusiasts, this probably seems like a minor issue. But for wildlife photographers it isn't, especially in the dark, wet habitats where Pentax should be the runaway leader.
Yes this certainly seems to be an area that Pentax need to improve on. As you imply, some of the Pentax advantages are negated by the areas where they are clearly still lagging behind, including video, AF, lack of lenses, tethering as well as flash (and indeed, lack of FF at present!). I'm sure there are a good number of people who have considered switching but been put off by one or other of these. I feel confident that Ricoh will address all of these at some point (they are clearly in the process) but it will probably take a while.

I wasn't aware that P-TTL was as bad as you say, as I have rarely used flash with Pentax. I have used Canikon flash quite a bit and they do have good systems. So it seems as though the main issue is with TTL exposure accuracy as far as you're concerned, or are there other deficiencies? Is the problem with both on and off-camera PTTL? Do you think it's to do with the sophistication of the algorithms used to calculate exposure, or something else?

QuoteOriginally posted by BretW Quote
And pre-flash--even if it chose the right level of exposure--is obviously inferior for anything that isn't holding still.
But all digital systems use pre-flash, so Pentax isn't any worse than the others in this regard?
03-28-2015, 10:36 AM   #58
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I stand corrected

QuoteOriginally posted by jonby Quote
But all digital systems use pre-flash, so Pentax isn't any worse than the others in this regard?
Interesting. I moved from An EOS 1n film body, to the Pentax K3 (with a great many dormant years in between). So I assumed the lackluster preflash performance I see on my K3 was a Canon vs. Pentax difference. But you are quite right, preflash is inherent to TTL metering systems on digital SLRs, including Canon. In that light, I can not speak to the relative merits of modern EOS bodies and modern Pentax bodies. But I can say that my K3's flash metering is terrible compared to my Canon 1n and A2e (circa 1997). I'd be shocked if modern Canon flash on digital EOS bodies was worse than that last generation of film bodies, but I guess we have to leave that possibility open at a formal level until someone who has used both weighs in.

This does raise an interesting question, though. The reason that digital SLRs need a preflash appears to be related to the fact that light reflected off the surface of the sensor is much less than was previously reflected off the film, so it can't be metered in real time. That's good in one way. It means light isn't being wasted and also bouncing around inside the camera. But given the incredible speed and immense amount of computing power now available to designers, why can't the TTL metering be done by measuring the light hitting the image sensor rather than bouncing off the surface? In other words, couldn't the sensor itself report the exposure information as it captures the image and cut off the flash the way film TTL bodies once did?
03-28-2015, 11:39 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by BretW Quote
I'd be shocked if modern Canon flash on digital EOS bodies was worse than that last generation of film bodies, but I guess we have to leave that possibility open at a formal level until someone who has used both weighs in.
Yes we need someone with extensive experience of both. My impression of the Canon & Nikon TTL is that it's pretty reliable, though.

QuoteOriginally posted by BretW Quote
This does raise an interesting question, though. The reason that digital SLRs need a preflash appears to be related to the fact that light reflected off the surface of the sensor is much less than was previously reflected off the film, so it can't be metered in real time.
I thought it was more to do with the fact that film emulsion has a relatively matte surface whereas sensors (or at least the filters in front of them) have a smooth surface. Reflections from the smooth surface are very angle-dependent (specular), and so reading light reflecting back from it will be an unreliable gauge of the light falling on it. I'm no expert though - could be wrong.

QuoteOriginally posted by BretW Quote
But given the incredible speed and immense amount of computing power now available to designers, why can't the TTL metering be done by measuring the light hitting the image sensor rather than bouncing off the surface? In other words, couldn't the sensor itself report the exposure information as it captures the image and cut off the flash the way film TTL bodies once did?
An interesting concept. Would be great if it were possible. I'm guessing the difficulty may be to do with how information is read from the sensor, or the speed at which that can be done. Given that flash durations can be 1/10000s or thereabouts, I can see why this might be difficult - but as you say, with recent improvements in speed, perhaps this is becoming a possibility. There are some mirrorless models coming out with a long exposure mode where you can see the build-up of exposure on the LCD as it happens. In this case, the sensor is clearly being read during the exposure, which seems relevant to what you are proposing, albeit over a very different timescale.
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