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03-12-2015, 08:12 AM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Dudes. It's a 645Z jr. It's the files. It's the images.
This ^^^^

For Nikon the D810 is top of the line, all other cameras in their range are compared, price wise, to that camera. But in the Ricoh range top of the line is 645z, and all other cameras can be compared, price wise, to that camera.

Ricoh very neatly extended the price envelope with the 645z. So an APS-C flagship at $1,200 and a 645 flagship at $8,000. That leaves a lot of space in the middle to be less expensive than the 645z.

03-12-2015, 08:22 AM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by phoebus Quote
Why should a FF cost 2x the price of a leading APS-C?

The model seems to indicate a body size roughly the same as the K5/K3 apart from the required spread of the mirror box. The processing/storage/actuators would all need to be moved up in spec to cope with the larger sensor, but at the end of the day the only thing that will be significantly more expensive will be the sensor. The Sony A7R is selling for ~$2100 and the A7ii is ~$1700. If Sony are selling their cameras at above cost price, then this would be a good clue as to the price difference between 24MP and 36MP FF...

The K3 launched at $1300, is there any reason to expect a 36MP FF to be more than $2000?

;-)
Most parts that are unique for FF will add extra cost. (Pentaprism, shutter, SR-mechanism... All add extra cost on FF).
But it's also the R&D cost, and cost for setting up a manufacturing line that will add more cost on a FF (as FF will be sold in much lower volume).

IMO it would be a great achievement if they can push the price down on the FF, so it ONLY cost twice as much as a similar specified APS-C camera.
03-12-2015, 08:49 AM - 1 Like   #228
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The 645Z is a perfect example of how smart & wonderful Pentax is when breaking into a new market & giving customers value @ an astounding price point.

Why do you think it will be any different with the FF?

Thankfully, you guys aren't pricing the new FF & Pentax is!
03-12-2015, 09:21 AM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by MyTZuS Quote
The 645Z is a perfect example of how smart & wonderful Pentax is when breaking into a new market & giving customers value @ an astounding price point.

Why do you think it will be any different with the FF?

Thankfully, you guys aren't pricing the new F & Pentax is!
FF isn't a new market. Cropped sensor MF using a SLR-format body is.

03-12-2015, 09:25 AM - 1 Like   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by MyTZuS Quote
The 645Z is a perfect example of how smart & wonderful Pentax is when breaking into a new market & giving customers value @ an astounding price point.

Why do you think it will be any different with the FF?

Thankfully, you guys aren't pricing the new FF & Pentax is!
When it comes to MF DSLR, Pentax is the biggest manufacturer and the only one that can use technology already developed for much higher volume cameras.
Where other MF manufactures have to put all R&D and manufacturing cost on a very limited volume of cameras sold, Pentax can re-use technology they already developed and had already covered cost by high volume camera sales.

When it comes to FF DSLR, Pentax is the smallest manufacturer and have no previous FF models to re-use FF components from. So Pentax first FF DSLR will have higher R&D and production cost, than manufacturers that have produced several generations of FF already.

This is one of the main reason why it was very logical that Pentax released 645D/645Z first. With these they could make a big impact on the MF market.
On the FF market where there are several larger competitors already established with much larger market share, Pentax has much slimmer chance on making an impact.
03-12-2015, 09:27 AM - 1 Like   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by MyTZuS Quote
The 645Z is a perfect example of how smart & wonderful Pentax is when breaking into a new market & giving customers value @ an astounding price point.

Why do you think it will be any different with the FF?

Thankfully, you guys aren't pricing the new FF & Pentax is!
There are a few people here on this thread who think the 'value' means 'cheap'.. therefore, the Pentax FF with similar D810 features should be priced the same and not less (which usually means value). IMHO, there is a big difference between value and cheap, for example, a Rebel series camera is 'cheap' because it looks and feels cheap even though it may cost more than a comparable Pentax model with similar features.
03-12-2015, 09:33 AM - 2 Likes   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
On the FF market where there are several larger competitors already established with much larger market share, Pentax has much slimmer chance on making an impact.
The time horizon of success for the 645Z effort was immediate.

The time horizon of success for the FF effort is several years and several iterations of technology.

We have to stop thinking of this coming camera as a bucket - a one-off product. 645Z is a bucket.

FF is a point on a continuum. Ricoh is committing to a series of bodies and upgrades, lenses, accessories and technology development, much of which will transfer up and down the product line in FW Updates and much of the balance will transfer down the product line in future APS-c and FF hardware releases.

Eventually there will be enough product coverage and cash flow across the entire Pentax product catalog to support ancillary services - at least in Japan and EU (though Denver is doing much better, USA will take a LONG time to get enough volume together for better service).

Who says this will be the only FF camera offered, at the only price point? People who want a $1,800 FF Pentax might very well get one eventually - but I don't think it will be this one.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-12-2015 at 10:44 AM.
03-12-2015, 10:16 AM   #233
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one thing I'm curious about is... when you look at the price gap between the K3 and 645z for example, and with those of us that are agreeing of a D810/5DMKIII competitor in terms of features, specs, price point... I'm wondering if maybe we got this all wrong.

Maybe this camera is not for those upgrading from APSC to FF. But for those that are using 645z and want a more compact high quality professional kit to use instead of their 5DMKIII/D810 and stay in the same brand. Many medium format shooters seem to have a FF as a secondary system. Maybe Pentax is trying to get those customers who carry 645z to use a Pentax FF instead of the competition.

Or, more likely, it's for both! and priced at $3000 to be attractive to both the deep pocket amateur/professional and the really deep pocketed professional.

03-12-2015, 10:58 AM - 1 Like   #234
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I find it much more sensible to have MF and APS......
03-12-2015, 11:08 AM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I find it much more sensible to have MF and APS......
I find it insanity but extremely fun to have Q, M4/3, APSC, 35, and MF... but I'm crazy.
03-12-2015, 12:48 PM   #236
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Well shoot - if they made a modern, high quality K-mount film camera I'd be on an airplane to Japan to get one.
03-12-2015, 12:51 PM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
Maybe Pentax is trying to get those customers who carry 645z to use a Pentax FF instead of the competition.
Could be but i wonder, why should they do it?? if they can get a more "experienced" brand with for example Nikon.. more available lenses, parts, support, accesories, etc..

When i got my first DSLR i compared every camera that was in my "price range" and i found that Pentax was giving me more features at a better price than Nikon or Canon.. and many people jumped into Pentax for the same reason, thats something that Pentax do since a long long time, great features at an afortable price.. so why should they do it different with the FF? ... MF cameras are a good example of this, and is part of the reason why the brand is so big in this segment.

I do think that Pentax needs something to compete with high end FF cameras... i just dont think that this is really smart as a first release, basically because they will need to grow their FF market fast, and having an expensive body will slow it down. But yes, eventually they will need to have something for this segment. With glass is different, glass is something that last a long time if is good and is something that people just buy it once ( if is good ), i dont think that saying that the FF body will be expensive just because the announced glass is not cheap is not totally true, it could be, but is not nessesary.
03-12-2015, 12:54 PM   #238
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
I do think that Pentax needs something to compete with high end FF cameras... i just dont think that this is really smart as a first release, basically because they will need to grow their FF market fast, and having an expensive body will slow it down.
Please explain why Ricoh needs to grow the [Pentax FF] market fast.
03-12-2015, 01:10 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Could be but i wonder, why should they do it?? if they can get a more "experienced" brand with for example Nikon.. more available lenses, parts, support, accesories, etc..

When i got my first DSLR i compared every camera that was in my "price range" and i found that Pentax was giving me more features at a better price than Nikon or Canon.. and many people jumped into Pentax for the same reason, thats something that Pentax do since a long long time, great features at an afortable price.. so why should they do it different with the FF? ... MF cameras are a good example of this, and is part of the reason why the brand is so big in this segment.

I do think that Pentax needs something to compete with high end FF cameras... i just dont think that this is really smart as a first release, basically because they will need to grow their FF market fast, and having an expensive body will slow it down. But yes, eventually they will need to have something for this segment. With glass is different, glass is something that last a long time if is good and is something that people just buy it once ( if is good ), i dont think that saying that the FF body will be expensive just because the announced glass is not cheap is not totally true, it could be, but is not nessesary.

It's also alone in the MF segment as the only brand offering an APSC offering and borrowing tech from "consumer" products. the 645d/z are essentially DSLR's with an MF sensor at the end of the day, instead of the typical camera/digitalback modular construction of a Phase one or Hassy.


The balance has to be features for money. The unrealistic expectation is to deliver a highly spec'd wonder camera and have it the same price as a 2/3 year old discontinued camera or current entry level 35mm format camera.

I originally believed that Pentax would be going after the D610/6D series. Offering the superior Pentax egronomics, a 24mp sensor, SR, and everything else from the K3 carried over with no other improvements.

Now that rumors are rolling around of a 36mp sensor (of which I cannot find the source of that rumor, please someone link it to an official interview), and all the other high end specs we are assuming it has based on the mock up and interview answers we are seeing what is more likely to be a standard-professional grade camera that would compete against the 5Dx/D8x series of cameras. Therefore a price tag to match.

I don't doubt that the camera will be the best bang for the buck in it's class. But I don't see it being cheaper than it's competitors beating out previous generation models which a lot of people seem to be comparing it to.

(ie: well the discontinued D800e is this price)
03-12-2015, 01:32 PM   #240
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Source? Asahi man said so
According to him, Pentax had a 24MP project/prototype but that was cancelled. I don't remember him saying that it will be a 36MP.
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