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02-25-2015, 02:17 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Crop factor is important.. but is not something determinating..
I agree. 24MP (and cropping down to a mere 10MP) hasn't been any barrier to the popularity of 24MP FF cameras like the Nikon D600/D610/D750 or Sony A7.

People buy these cameras for their FF properties, not their compatibility with APS-C lenses.

Anyway, I suspect many Pentaxians who upgrade to FF will probably keep their APS-C bodies, so their APS-C lenses will always have a natural home, and to take advantage of the extra reach of some DA lenses (eg the DA*300) on APS-C.

02-25-2015, 04:34 AM   #32
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A $2000 price point would be within reason, certainly what would/should be expected of a full-featured, full-frame DSLR. I'd like to see pixel density sufficient to deliver at least 16mp when using the APS-C crop mode. I do a lot of macro, and four of my five macro lenses are/were designed for FF, plus a bevy of miscellaneous SFL and several zooms that were made to cover FF. WHat really attracts me is the tilt/swivel screen which would facilitate many field macro shots. Getting harder and harder to get up and down from the ground, The old refconverter is helpful, the flu-card with a little Samsung tablet I have found clumsy to the point of being worthless.

DO WE HAVE A POSTED A COMPREHENSIVE LIST OF PENTAX OPTICS CURRENTLY IN PRODUCTION THAT ARE FF CAPABLE?
02-25-2015, 05:04 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Caribe Quote
As a result of a previous thread, another member gave an estimation of around $1900.00, for the U.S., give or take a couple of hundreds for some adjustments. This is based on reliable information (at least I have no reason to be doubtful) from an European website. What do you think?
Reserving price is not necessarily the full product price.
The D600 was "estimated" to cost around $1500; it didn't. $1900 +/- "a couple of hundreds" is much more realistic though.
02-25-2015, 06:41 AM   #34
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Dynamic Range

One factor for me that is becoming increasingly important is a wider dynamic range. If this is present in the FF first release, I think image quality will be less focused on the pixel count for many existing K3 users.

02-25-2015, 07:22 AM   #35
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The only things Ricoh has said about the FF so far is that the sensor will be between 30 and 40mp, that it will be K mount, and it will be released later this year. That is it. So, we already know one of the things people seem to be going back and forth about. The pixel count. It isn't going to be 24, and it isn't going to be 50.
02-25-2015, 07:29 AM   #36
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Let's talk system price

When you talk price, one really needs to look at 'total system price'. A camera alone will not meet the needs of most ff users. The complete system will likely include a new camera, several lenses, and more than likely a new computer system to process the high megapixel files. So looking at the investment cost of ff, you're probably looking at around $7,500 - $8,000 based on the following prices:

ff camera @ $2k - $2.5k
2 lenses @ $2k each ($4k total)
new computer system @ $1.5k

I'm sure there are some folks around with that amount of cash but they are not the typical consumer. Full frame is nice if you have the discretionary income but will it really make you a better photographer? I've been a Pentax used for decades because I can use my old glass, buy inexpensive new (used) glass and enjoy the art of photography on a relatively low cost budget. I'll wait for the $500 K-3 to fulfill my camera lust.
02-25-2015, 07:30 AM   #37
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The OP might refer to the Yen/€ and €/$ exchange calculations I did on the other thread to restate pentaxeros.com's estimate into USD. I arrived at roughly $1,900. I believe that number is lower than the price point will be - in fact I will be disappointed if they release a camera spec'ed to be profitable at that price. I really don't want a D750 for $1,999. I surely don't want a D610 at all.

I'm hoping for a 36Mp sensor with 90% +/- of the D810 capabilities, MSRPO priced between $2,600 and $2,800 - IOW a camera worthy of the new lenses.*

Unless of course the surprise is they release TWO CAMERAS.




* FWIW, it will be a while before I buy a FF Pentax. I don't post images anywhere; I don't print large; and I spend at least half my hobby time shooting film with K lenses on KX and MX or FA/DA on an MZ-S.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-25-2015 at 09:36 AM.
02-25-2015, 09:20 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
...MSRPO priced between $2,600 and $2,800 - IOW a camera worthy of the new lenses.*

Unless of course the surprise is they release TWO CAMERAS.
'worthy' is a word I'd agree with. I hope so too.

But it doesn't have to be - if it's oriented at current enthusiasts who have a boatload of FF glass and just want to get it out there and used by as many as possible to make some noise... it might be a 'generation 1' body.

... now ... if they did release a 24MP and 36MP at the same time ... heh... perhaps a question for another thread, if someone want's to start a poll ...

02-25-2015, 09:36 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by onlineflyer Quote
When you talk price, one really needs to look at 'total system price'. A camera alone will not meet the needs of most ff users. The complete system will likely include a new camera, several lenses, and more than likely a new computer system to process the high megapixel files. So looking at the investment cost of ff, you're probably looking at around $7,500 - $8,000 based on the following prices:

ff camera @ $2k - $2.5k
2 lenses @ $2k each ($4k total)
new computer system @ $1.5k

I'm sure there are some folks around with that amount of cash but they are not the typical consumer. Full frame is nice if you have the discretionary income but will it really make you a better photographer? I've been a Pentax used for decades because I can use my old glass, buy inexpensive new (used) glass and enjoy the art of photography on a relatively low cost budget. I'll wait for the $500 K-3 to fulfill my camera lust.
I already have FF glass and a computer that would handle even 645z files with no problems.
02-25-2015, 10:13 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by onlineflyer Quote
When you talk price, one really needs to look at 'total system price'. A camera alone will not meet the needs of most ff users. The complete system will likely include a new camera, several lenses, and more than likely a new computer system to process the high megapixel files. So looking at the investment cost of ff, you're probably looking at around $7,500 - $8,000 based on the following prices:

ff camera @ $2k - $2.5k
2 lenses @ $2k each ($4k total)
new computer system @ $1.5k

I'm sure there are some folks around with that amount of cash but they are not the typical consumer. Full frame is nice if you have the discretionary income but will it really make you a better photographer? I've been a Pentax used for decades because I can use my old glass, buy inexpensive new (used) glass and enjoy the art of photography on a relatively low cost budget. I'll wait for the $500 K-3 to fulfill my camera lust.
Very Flawed numbers for cost. The 100mm WR macro for example is $700. The DA* 300 F4 is just over $1k.

Also to get a computer to work on FF images doesn't require much more than filling up your DRM slots with some more ram. How did people survive from going from 5MP to 16 MP. No quad core system which they all are now will have any issues with some photos. The only think you really need is to spend $ on is high capacity hard drives, with maybe a backup system in place. But you should be doing that for any of your photos now anyhow unless you do a ton of prints.
02-25-2015, 11:58 AM - 1 Like   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Caribe Quote
As a result of a previous thread, another member gave an estimation of around $1900.00, for the U.S., give or take a couple of hundreds for some adjustments. This is based on reliable information (at least I have no reason to be doubtful) from an European website. What do you think? Is this price a good deal? Specs are not out yet, but was this what you expected? I think it's a bit low, makes me feel that some features could be kept out for some reason. Or, (as suggested by others), the FF will be so good you will just go for it and some new lenses. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/169-pentax-full-frame/289252-pentaxeros-a...pentax-ff.html And of course, the US prices here can change as a result of the market!!!
My advice: don't raise your (ar anyone's) hopes for anything below $2500 and you won't be disappointed.

If it does come in lower, pleasant surprise.
02-25-2015, 12:42 PM   #42
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for some reason, I personally would like to see/am expecting a d810 contemporary.

it's really the only reason to leave aps-c for ff is a nearly flagship model with higher MP lower noise.

you want/need the high MP for your landscape and you need/want iso 2500 performance with an advanced AF system for action.

otherwise, what's the point in leaving a K3? I think that's your target demo, you're generally not going to get k30/k50 users to jump at FF.
they are more budget conscious. I would think the target is the advanced amateur/semi-pro and technophile.

it's 10% of the pentax 1%. an entry level full frame won't be enough to pull me out of a K3 because my K3 is basically an entry level FF with a slightly high ppi so a little more noise at higher iso.

the FF has to be enough of an upgrade to really warrant switching, like the AF on the K3 over the K5 plus more other stuff.

36-40 MP with 50+ AF points, even better AF tracking logic and great noise performance up to about iso 2500 is the minimum. that puts it closer to 3k
02-25-2015, 01:10 PM - 1 Like   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by nomadkng Quote

36-40 MP with 50+ AF points, even better AF tracking logic and great noise performance up to about iso 2500 is the minimum. that puts it closer to 3k
People that have the $3k to spend in a body already switch to D810s or 5Ds, i dont think that is the target that will give some profit to Ricoh because that people is already gone.. most of the people that only shoots with Pentax and want a FF camera are "budget" people, Pentax costumers never paid more than $1300 for a Pentax flagship body, so WHO will buy a $3000 body?? NO BODY.. why? because somebody that had the money to buy a $3000 camera and really wanted something like the D810 already got it...

But if we do a poll here we'll see that most of the pentax shooters that also shoot with FF are using A7s and D610s.. some D750 perhaps.. But just a fewwwww shoot with $3000 bodys. So Pentax target at THIS TIME is not the $3000 market.. it have to be lower than that.. in a couple of years perhaps YES. But not now.
02-25-2015, 01:27 PM   #44
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Yeah, 3k puts me out of their market. 1900-2300, that probably puts me in the market. 24mp, probably out of the market since I have a K3 already and my shooting isn't studio stuff. 36mp, that puts me back in the market again, unless DR and ISO sucks or isn't a big improvement. The FOV from my K3, K5, and K-01 all look normal to me anyway.

No, Ricoh already said they are using a sensor in the 30-40mp range at CP+ so I believe they will. They are going to want to sell a compact and sealed FF because that is what they are known for, and more they are going to want to sell that FF at a price to pull people in because of the 2 new lenses along with the one it will likely be released with and a refreshed set of limiteds. That is where they will make the money. Imagine the money they would make from someone buying it with a 24 or 28-70 f/2.8 lens as a kit lens, and then the 70-200 f/2.8, then the 150-450, and then the 12-28 that looks like it is coming down the line, and possibly the 31, 43, and 77 updated as DC WR limiteds, and then a reclassification of the DA*55 as a DFA*55. That would give a set of primes and zooms for a person who has LBA, cover a good range, and bring in a hell of a lot more money than a high priced body. Now imagine bringing back the FA*600 and making it WR and DC for those FF people. That would bring in more money. Toss in a consumer 24, 35, 50 and zoom 24-1xx there and you get more lenses sold, and they already have the lens formulas, just needed are a few little updates. Make it all WR and you have a unique lineup that no one else would have, and it could bring Pentax back to a strong #3.

But hey, what do I know. I'm an engineer and a hobbyist photographer who doesn't care what lenses I have other than they work good for me and give me reasonably sharp images. I'll leave the arguing to the pros who know what they are talking about and the financial analysts who care to run numbers and do forecasting.
02-25-2015, 01:42 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
Yeah, 3k puts me out of their market.
That puts most of pentaxians out of the market ( at this time ) because the investment will not be only in the body, we need lenses, upgrades so... I wonder, for he people that say that the body will be around the $3000.. who do you guys think will buy a pentax FF at $3000 ?? pro's that already have their high end gear? .. enthusiast that have some FF glass?? brand new costumers?? switchers?? who??? cuz as i see it, none of them will do it just because Pentax have a FF that kind of behaves like the D810. We gotta think that for example Nikon have a lot more users, 2nd hand lenses, modern FF lenses AND third party lenses.. So to spend $3000+ in a body people gotta do some good thinking because we are not talking about just the body.. a lot of other things have to be consider.
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