Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-25-2015, 02:01 PM - 2 Likes   #46
Emperor and Senpai
Loyal Site Supporter
VoiceOfReason's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Nashville, IN
Posts: 5,427
QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
That puts most of pentaxians out of the market ( at this time ) because the investment will not be only in the body, we need lenses, upgrades so... I wonder, for he people that say that the body will be around the $3000.. who do you guys think will buy a pentax FF at $3000 ?? pro's that already have their high end gear? .. enthusiast that have some FF glass?? brand new costumers?? switchers?? who??? cuz as i see it, none of them will do it just because Pentax have a FF that kind of behaves like the D810. We gotta think that for example Nikon have a lot more users, 2nd hand lenses, modern FF lenses AND third party lenses.. So to spend $3000+ in a body people gotta do some good thinking because we are not talking about just the body.. a lot of other things have to be consider.
This is what so many fail to understand. The pros who needed FF left a long time ago or went straight to the 645, and speaking of that I've seen used 645D bodies in the 3k range. To attract those who left back they have to have a compelling body at a good price in place to make them get rid of their FF Canikon and the lenses they bought to go with it and come back to Pentax.

02-25-2015, 02:14 PM - 1 Like   #47
Senior Member




Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Calgary, AB CA
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 292
QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
People that have the $3k to spend in a body already switch to D810s or 5Ds
I do, and I didn't. It's not the body cost, it's the glass cost.

I have probably 25-30 lenses in K and m42, and 3 645 for my N film body. Not all are stellar; probably 5 or 10 I wouldn't miss. I was looking at the 645Z and decided to wait 'just a bit' to see if there was a FF, as some of the members here had strongly hinted there would be.

Why didn't I switch to Canon? I held a 5DmkII once - it felt like a plastic toy, and unnecessarily bulky for it's limited features (compared to the K20D at the time). And their ergonomics are just ... yech.

Why not Nikon? The D800 felt nice. Lenses? I could by a new car for the replacement cost.

$3k for a FF instead of $10k for 645? That might be the best compromise between 645, FF, and APS-C. Waaaay back when they chose 135 as a good trade-off for a reason (including available film stock). Big enough for good IQ, small enough lenses to be portable.

But a 'surprise' that Pentax may pull off is to price it low enough to get enough bodies out to folks like us to make a difference in market opinion. FF body #2 may be more of a 1D/D4 once folks know to take them seriously, and they know where to put it between FF#1 and the 645 series.
02-25-2015, 02:30 PM   #48
Pentaxian
kooks's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Photos: Albums
Posts: 666
QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
This is what so many fail to understand. The pros who needed FF left a long time ago or went straight to the 645, and speaking of that I've seen used 645D bodies in the 3k range. To attract those who left back they have to have a compelling body at a good price in place to make them get rid of their FF Canikon and the lenses they bought to go with it and come back to Pentax.
Well you are right there.. but we cant assume that all the pros use MF.. i know that many of them do, but for example in my place the onces that use MF are counted with 1 hand.. all the rest use FF for their business because the versatility... but once again yes.. many are already using MF.

---------- Post added 02-25-15 at 03:32 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
I do, and I didn't. It's not the body cost, it's the glass cost.

I have probably 25-30 lenses in K and m42, and 3 645 for my N film body. .
you are an special case.. hehe .. not everybody have all that money invested in glass so yes, for you switch brands is kind of hard.. that is totally understandable.
02-25-2015, 03:56 PM   #49
Pentaxian




Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,434
QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
People that have the $3k to spend in a body already switch to D810s or 5Ds, i dont think that is the target that will give some profit to Ricoh because that people is already gone.. most of the people that only shoots with Pentax and want a FF camera are "budget" people, Pentax costumers never paid more than $1300 for a Pentax flagship body, so WHO will buy a $3000 body?? NO BODY.. why? because somebody that had the money to buy a $3000 camera and really wanted something like the D810 already got it...

But if we do a poll here we'll see that most of the pentax shooters that also shoot with FF are using A7s and D610s.. some D750 perhaps.. But just a fewwwww shoot with $3000 bodys. So Pentax target at THIS TIME is not the $3000 market.. it have to be lower than that.. in a couple of years perhaps YES. But not now.
I disagree with your logic. Many who can and want a d810 stayed because of their investment in K-mount glass. There is a lot of F*/FA* legacy glass floating around plus 3rd party FF high end glass in the hands of Pentax users. I'm not the only one with nearly 10k in K-mount FF glass that I'm using on the K3. I really wanted a d800 because I was fed up with my K5iis failing me in critical AF situations, but I held out based on the promise of the K3 and I'm rather pleased with my K3. BUT I still want a d810 for my extreme situations. I just have so much invested in K-mount glass, I don't want to part with it/I really can't avoid the all-in investment of a system switch. Well I can't go much longer without a FF body, so it really is a choice of Pentax FF meeting my needs or I do have to switch. I know I'm not alone, in fact I believe I'm the standard for those who are looking forward to the FF release. So my argument is- if there's a FF that really isn't any different than a K3 except for it being FF, there is no market. It's like paying 1900 for a new paint job on your car. It's really still the same car.

There's many wildlife shooters who have already expressed consternation over whether to sacrifice crop factor FoV for full frame, just to get better noise performance at higher iso. Aside from the "I have a FF because it was available crowd" and the 'I want to shoot at f1.2 all the time crowd", what would a K3 spec FF camera really get you for your 1900. Nothing. The FF MUST be a flagship or near flagship caliber DSLR. You can always make d610s later when you can pack in more tech at cheaper prices to warrant a cross over from a now aged K3. But very people are just going to buy a FF just because its a FF. It must do what FF does best and do it better than most. That means great pixel density for low noise yet stunning landscape AND high iso performance at high fps for action. That's basically the d810. It doesn't have to be a d4, but it CAN'T be a d610 it's just not a big enough leap to justify spending even an extra dollar. we went through the same debate with the k5 to k5ii/s and many on this forum and in national pubs ridiculed pentax for marketing a minimally improved product, a half step so to speak. a "half step" improved FF for 1900 isn't going to do anything marketing wise.

BTW, many of those shooting with A7s are using a lot of Pentax glass, so they are trying to get the best of both worlds. You think they are going to buy a Pentax FF when they already have a Sony FF? They aren't your market either unless you give them a FF that is BETTER than the Sony they already have.

A final thought, if the FF market is for lower end DSLR why is Pentax marketing a $2900 DFA* 70-200? That's a premium/flagship capable lens. The 2 new FF lenses tell you, you are looking at near flagship specs for this FF.


Last edited by nomadkng; 02-25-2015 at 04:06 PM.
02-25-2015, 05:07 PM   #50
Pentaxian
kooks's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Photos: Albums
Posts: 666
QuoteOriginally posted by nomadkng Quote
I disagree with your logic. Many who can and want a d810 stayed because of their investment in K-mount glass. There is a lot of F*/FA* legacy glass floating around plus 3rd party FF high end glass in the hands of Pentax users. I'm not the only one with nearly 10k in K-mount FF glass that I'm using on the K3. I really wanted a d800 because I was fed up with my K5iis failing me in critical AF situations, but I held out based on the promise of the K3 and I'm rather pleased with my K3. BUT I still want a d810 for my extreme situations. I just have so much invested in K-mount glass, I don't want to part with it/I really can't avoid the all-in investment of a system switch. Well I can't go much longer without a FF body, so it really is a choice of Pentax FF meeting my needs or I do have to switch. I know I'm not alone, in fact I believe I'm the standard for those who are looking forward to the FF release. So my argument is- if there's a FF that really isn't any different than a K3 except for it being FF, there is no market. It's like paying 1900 for a new paint job on your car. It's really still the same car.
Well.. somebody did a poll here about the budget.. and most of the people said as today the results are:

43.07% said that will spend $1000 to $2000 ( just the body )
22.28% said $2000 to $3000 ( body and maybe a lens )
7.92% $3000 to $4000 ( body and lens )
3.47% $4000 + ( system )

( i didnt wrote the ones that are almost impossble like lower than $1000 )

So as you can see.. from this 5% ( pentax market ) only 3.5% are willing to invest more than $4000.. that means that with a body of $3000 the rest will be for lenses. so NO.. there is no market for this kind of body because most pentaxians are not willing to invest that much money in a body. Ofcourse we cant take that poll as writen in stone or something official, but is a parameter that we can check so see how the average market could react. Do you guys think that Ricoh will release a body for a 3.5% out of the 4.5% ( dslr market ) that they have??? it just doesnt make any sense. They will do it for the average pentax user that havent switch and will love to shoot with FF sensor, and that market will spend something an average of $2000 / $2500.

Many people here said that they will be more than happy with a K3 with a FF sensor and some improvements ( faster AF, new image processor, etc ) .. and that's a fact. Legacy glass is ok, but i dont think that Ricoh will love to have people only shooting legacy, they need to sell the new lenses to make money and besides, we dont know how the legacy will behave with the new body.

I can understand your point, but you are part of this tiny 3.5% out of the 5% of Pentax market.. waaaaaayyy to small to only think about this market.

---------- Post added 02-25-15 at 06:11 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by nomadkng Quote

A final thought, if the FF market is for lower end DSLR why is Pentax marketing a $2900 DFA* 70-200? That's a premium/flagship capable lens. The 2 new FF lenses tell you, you are looking at near flagship specs for this FF.
we can not assume that. Body is one thing, lenses are another thing.. Each 18/24 months there is a new version of a body, not the same with lenses.. lenses last a looooong time.. look at your situation.. how many bodys have you owned? and how many times did you buy the same lens?? ..
02-25-2015, 05:30 PM   #51
Junior Member




Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 37
Original Poster
OK; so in order to survive this FF saga, Pentax should try to (not in a particular order) :
1- get interested the K3, K5'ers, that own FF lenses
2- let some extra cash to new potential owners for a kit lens
3- Sell a powerful FF, able to bring back some that might still have pentaxian blood
4- Sell a great FF, able to bring back sony users that using pentax lenses.
5- those that are thinking of the pentax 645, but don't have the budget.
6- make a good proposition for K camera owners that have a few FF lenses
7- of course those that want it, and will buy it!
8- Keep the pixels clean for those pixel peakers
9- Keep the pixel count just right for those who want the best image quality
10- Have low iso capability and wide dynamic range

Seems like a difficult task. Feel free to add more!

I want one, but the K3 is great for me at the moment.
02-25-2015, 08:32 PM   #52
Site Supporter
Site Supporter
6BQ5's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Nevada, USA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,123
A more interesting question to me is what will the FF body cost during the clear-out sale as the successor is announced?
02-25-2015, 09:08 PM   #53
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 9,182
QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
A more interesting question to me is what will the FF body cost during the clear-out sale as the successor is announced?

After the years of angst waiting or full frame, Boris, that's not the attitude of a proud, passionate and paid-up Pentax supporter ...


It's time to sell your car, your watch, and your least favourite child!


Disclaimer: I'm unlikely to be able to afford what this thing's worth.

02-25-2015, 09:44 PM   #54
Emperor and Senpai
Loyal Site Supporter
VoiceOfReason's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Nashville, IN
Posts: 5,427
QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
A more interesting question to me is what will the FF body cost during the clear-out sale as the successor is announced?
Of course it could end up that we get insane sales on it like we've seen on the K3.
02-25-2015, 10:44 PM   #55
Pentaxian
RobA_Oz's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,358
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
… It's time to sell your car, your watch, and your least favourite child! …
What? You've run out of kidneys, already? What have you been buying?
02-26-2015, 04:05 AM   #56
Senior Member




Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: twente
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 112
bought in 2009 a k20d: € 550
bought in 2012 a k5IIs: €1100
bought in 2015 a FF : € 2200.

So based on this simple math my guess is the release price will be around $2500,-

Must be a very interesting camera if I will spend that amount of money. Else i will wait for another year when it will be available for under $1500 or find a used one.
02-26-2015, 09:11 AM - 1 Like   #57
Pentaxian
RonHendriks1966's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,714
QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Well.. somebody did a poll here about the budget.. and most of the people said as today the results are:

43.07% said that will spend $1000 to $2000 ( just the body )
22.28% said $2000 to $3000 ( body and maybe a lens )
7.92% $3000 to $4000 ( body and lens )
3.47% $4000 + ( system )

( i didnt wrote the ones that are almost impossble like lower than $1000 )

So as you can see.. from this 5% ( pentax market ) only 3.5% are willing to invest more than $4000.. that means that with a body of $3000 the rest will be for lenses. so NO.. there is no market for this kind of body because most pentaxians are not willing to invest that much money in a body. Ofcourse we cant take that poll as writen in stone or something official, but is a parameter that we can check so see how the average market could react. Do you guys think that Ricoh will release a body for a 3.5% out of the 4.5% ( dslr market ) that they have??? it just doesnt make any sense. They will do it for the average pentax user that havent switch and will love to shoot with FF sensor, and that market will spend something an average of $2000 / $2500.

Many people here said that they will be more than happy with a K3 with a FF sensor and some improvements ( faster AF, new image processor, etc ) .. and that's a fact. Legacy glass is ok, but i dont think that Ricoh will love to have people only shooting legacy, they need to sell the new lenses to make money and besides, we dont know how the legacy will behave with the new body.

I can understand your point, but you are part of this tiny 3.5% out of the 5% of Pentax market.. waaaaaayyy to small to only think about this market

You are forgetting that the Full Frame market is somewhere between 10 and 15 % of the total dslr market. Even if the camera is a huge hit for Pentax, the salesnumbers will be low. For the pricerange of the D810 you won't see any real boxes moving in shops.
02-26-2015, 10:37 AM   #58
Pentaxian
kooks's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San José, Costa Rica
Photos: Albums
Posts: 666
QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
You are forgetting that the Full Frame market is somewhere between 10 and 15 % of the total dslr market.
Forgot about that.. So that's even a smaller market for an expensive body.. No way that they will aim this tiny target from start..
02-26-2015, 10:54 AM   #59
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 26,212
I'm not sure why, if it's 36 MP as has been speculated, it would be less than $2500. And I'm not sure why I'd buy it, if it was less than 36 MP.
02-26-2015, 11:16 AM   #60
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,457
QuoteOriginally posted by Caribe Quote
As a result of a previous thread, another member gave an estimation of around $1900.00, for the U.S., give or take a couple of hundreds for some adjustments. This is based on reliable information (at least I have no reason to be doubtful) from an European website. What do you think? Is this price a good deal? Specs are not out yet, but was this what you expected? I think it's a bit low, makes me feel that some features could be kept out for some reason. Or, (as suggested by others), the FF will be so good you will just go for it and some new lenses. https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/169-pentax-full-frame/289252-pentaxeros-a...pentax-ff.html And of course, the US prices here can change as a result of the market!!!
I think you better add about $500 to that for starters...... Its not going to be cheap !
I doubt Pentax will go a 50mp sensor for starters. But if they do???....expect to pay over $3000 just for the body. At that point Im OUT. This Pentax FF needs to stay under 36mp to be attractive to real world users and still be affordable. All we have at this point is a 3-D hunk of plastic and the "Announcement" of an "Announcement".......we can all safely dream for now....lol

Last edited by Dlanor Sekao; 02-26-2015 at 11:26 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
24x36mm, aps-c, body, cost, crop, da, factor, ff, format, full-frame, glass, images, kids, legacy, lens, lenses, market, mf, pentax, photography, pros, reason, ricoh, sensor, studio, switch, u.s.
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What do you think the Pentax FF kit lens will be? Sagitta Pentax Full Frame 70 02-16-2015 10:47 AM
What do you think the K70 is going to have? Painter Pentax DSLR Discussion 49 07-10-2014 12:55 AM
So what do you think of the new Sony camera killer? FoTom Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 42 10-21-2013 02:03 PM
What do you think the replacement for the K-01 will be like? Glen_S Pentax Mirrorless Cameras 74 01-16-2013 09:47 AM
What do you think of Touchscreen for future Pentax DSLR's LeDave Pentax DSLR Discussion 34 03-25-2010 08:31 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:09 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top