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02-26-2015, 12:01 PM - 1 Like   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'm not sure why, if it's 36 MP as has been speculated, it would be less than $2500. And I'm not sure why I'd buy it, if it was less than 36 MP.
MP isn't the sole determining factor for why I'd buy a FF. I'd be ok with 30/32ish but closer to 50+ AF points than 27, still around 8 fps and much better AF tracking and speed. Those things are what's going to cost money and those are really the only reason to move to FF. I don't need a greater pixel density than I already have on the K3, but I need much better native low iso (I'd love a native of 50) + high iso performance (need much more useable images at 2400), high speed flash sync of 1/500 and much better AF with more points and all the cross type focus wizardry that a larger sensor would enable.

02-26-2015, 12:08 PM   #62
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This Pentax FF needs to stay under 36mp to be attractive to real world users and still be affordable.
I have a 24 Mp camera already. I guess its to be sold to the D610- Canon 6D crowd? I'll consider that if it has low light capability like an A7s or Nikon 750. You have to improve either low light capability or resolution, or what's the point?
02-26-2015, 12:51 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I have a 24 Mp camera already. I guess its to be sold to the D610- Canon 6D crowd? I'll consider that if it has low light capability like an A7s or Nikon 750. You have to improve either low light capability or resolution, or what's the point?
I crop at times. I already have 24mp. I wouldn't see the point in getting a FF camera if it only does what my K3 does other than shallower DOF.

How many will "upgrade" if they get the same capabilities, but wider FOV on the same lenses (If they are even usable) with the same MP. The guys whining about the OVF maybe?
02-26-2015, 01:09 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
24Mp FF sensor would be too much of a step backwards for DA lens compatibility
A very clean high ISO at 10 Mpx would not be particularly unattractive. FWIW, my opinion is that given the performance and price point of K-mount APS-C cameras, those who own lenses for both formats will likely own two bodies.


...Oh, and regarding the price point. It should be noted that the K-3 was priced above its direct competition, the Nikon D7100. I could have saved enough for a decent flash on the price difference. I would expect price parity with the D810.


Steve

02-26-2015, 04:57 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
A very clean high ISO at 10 Mpx would not be particularly unattractive. FWIW, my opinion is that given the performance and price point of K-mount APS-C cameras, those who own lenses for both formats will likely own two bodies.
...at least.

QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
...Oh, and regarding the price point. It should be noted that the K-3 was priced above its direct competition, the Nikon D7100. I could have saved enough for a decent flash on the price difference. I would expect price parity with the D810.

Steve
Now, of course, the K-3 is priced at US$841.00 and the D7100 at US$996.95, at the B&H webstore, which suggests only early adopters will pay a premium. As a serial early adopter, I will have to resist continuing that behaviour, this time.
02-26-2015, 10:54 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
The guys whining about the OVF maybe?
Yes.

When I started with crop/digital I was ~40 years old. Now I'm 46, and although I can still just barely manually nail focus, I'm doing it with the magnifying eyepiece, and since I wear glasses it means I can't easily see the info display across the bottom.

When I shoot film things are much easier; bigger, brighter finders, and more often than not, split image focus. Using a crop body feels like shooting with a toy camera.

Now... if it were a hybrid OVF with a peaking overlay I wouldn't say no to it, either.
02-27-2015, 12:37 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
It does seems quite low.. but i dont think that Pentax will compete with Canikon head to head just because they cant.. and is foolish.. what will happen if Pentax releaseas a FF similar perhaps a little better in aspects and price to for example D810 ?? Nikon will simple release another body better than the one Pentax just released, perhaps Canon too, and they will do it simply because they can do it, and I really really REALLY doubt that Pentax will release another body just to compete with the one that Canikons released because its too much money for a really little market share.

There are NO PRO that are using D810's or MK3s that will switch to Pentax just because Pentax have some extra features that "they dont", and i say they "dont" because in a few months they will have them too. No body is going to sell all their PRO equipment just because Pentax have a new FF and they want to "try it". that is the truth.

What is a smart move? Build their own FF user base, with people that are using APS-C and will like to jump to FF but not to the high end models.. something for the average costumers that cant take $3000+ out of their pucket just because they want a FF... I bet that most pentaxians that switch to other brands didnt do it to buy a D810 or a 5Dmk3... most of them did it to buy Sony A7's and D610's .. perhaps some D750s.. THAT is the target that Pentax will have to retain.. and in a few years, this target will want to upgrade their body do a better one.. and that is when Ricoh can release a better body similiar to Canikons flag ships...

So people might say.. yeah but the lenses that they release are not "average" price, and that is truth, because Ricoh is not thinking in todays market, they are thinking in releaseing a lens that will last several years and will be use for all the Pentax FF users that will like to use a pro lens... What is everybodys advice when somebody sais about if buying a lens or a body??? most people will say LENS, think about the glass and then the body, so this is what Ricoh is doing, releasing a GOOD GLASS so all the people that will use the FF body can buy in the future ( or if they have the money in the present ), a glass that will deliver great images with this new glass.

With this price ( around the $2000s ), Ricoh can get the attention of APS-C Canikons that want something better than the D610s or the 6D, people that dont really mind selling all their investment in equipment ( APS-C glass, body, etc ).


But we will see.. as i said in other topics.. i expect something between $2000 and $2300.. Pentaxeros people sems to really trust the Pentaxeros store price, and the guy that runs the store claims to have the info of price and date. and also lets not forget that in Spain Pentax is not that bad. If they said that the price is going to be around the 2000 euros is because the price is going to be close than that, and if is like that, the Pentax FF will cost even less than that because of the sales tax ( 21% in spain ).
good points.
I think Ricoh target is pentaxians at first who want a pentax full frame brand and then pentaxians who already have switched to others brands.
02-27-2015, 12:39 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by zmohie Quote
good points.
I think Ricoh target is pentaxians at first who want a pentax full frame brand and then pentaxians who already have switched to others brands.
Well, that's indeed what the executive said at CP 2015. :-)

02-27-2015, 01:25 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dlanor Sekao Quote
I think you better add about $500 to that for starters...... Its not going to be cheap !
I doubt Pentax will go a 50mp sensor for starters. But if they do???....expect to pay over $3000 just for the body. At that point Im OUT. This Pentax FF needs to stay under 36mp to be attractive to real world users and still be affordable. All we have at this point is a 3-D hunk of plastic and the "Announcement" of an "Announcement".......we can all safely dream for now....lol
But if pentaxeros is preordering for 2000€ tax included, (again I am not rejecting the validity of their price), it doesn't make sense a price of $3000.00 without taxes. Am I wrong? Why should it be $1000.00 cheaper in Europe?

Last edited by Caribe; 02-27-2015 at 01:39 PM. Reason: grammatical error
02-27-2015, 01:56 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Caribe Quote
But if pentaxeros is preordering for 2000€ tax included, (again I am not rejecting the validity of their price), it doesn't make sense a price of $3000.00 without taxes. Am I wrong? Why should it be $1000.00 cheaper in Europe?
Because the price will never be $3000 body only... The people that want that is the really really tiny market out of the really tiny Pentax DSLR market share. Price in US will be cheaper (if we take the 21% out) than the 2000 euros.. Its the only way that makes sense to me for releasing this body and to gain some market share fast.. Something with a D750 performance but at a lower price. We have to remember that time plays againt Ricoh in all this FF game.. so as soon as they stablish a FF user base the better for the brand.
02-27-2015, 02:16 PM - 1 Like   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
I agree. 24MP (and cropping down to a mere 10MP) hasn't been any barrier to the popularity of 24MP FF cameras like the Nikon D600/D610/D750 or Sony A7.

People buy these cameras for their FF properties, not their compatibility with APS-C lenses.

Anyway, I suspect many Pentaxians who upgrade to FF will probably keep their APS-C bodies, so their APS-C lenses will always have a natural home, and to take advantage of the extra reach of some DA lenses (eg the DA*300) on APS-C.
I would consider the FF camera to be the flagship camera Ricoh bring out to be everything previous cameras were and more. I would feel the FF to be inadequate if it had to be paired with an APS-C to provide the Mp needed in a cropped format. I would personally find it hard to justify buying a FF camera if it came out with 24Mp.

Technology has espoused the rapid progression in the sensor department and it would be a hard sell for Ricoh to bring out a FF camera with a two generation-old sensor and expect it to do well in a market full of APS-C cameras that perform well at 24Mp.
02-27-2015, 02:35 PM   #72
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Pentax managed to create excellent image quality with a 16mp sensor, in a time when 18 and 20mp were around with lower IQ. If a FF has 24mp with better IQ than the K3, and the advantages of FF imaging, I wouldn't mind for a second buying a $2000.00 Pentax FF. I think the k3 has a very good crop factor and image size. If a 36mp sensor is even better, well great. My point is, mp count is only good if the image is good and it results in an affordable Pentax quality FF.
02-27-2015, 02:40 PM - 2 Likes   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Because the price will never be $3000 body only... The people that want that is the really really tiny market out of the really tiny Pentax DSLR market share. Price in US will be cheaper (if we take the 21% out) than the 2000 euros.. Its the only way that makes sense to me for releasing this body and to gain some market share fast.. Something with a D750 performance but at a lower price. We have to remember that time plays againt Ricoh in all this FF game.. so as soon as they stablish a FF user base the better for the brand.
Why are you so stuck on market share? We've explained, they don't have the resources to compete for market share. No matter what they release it will be a low-volume product. They're not going to have a 100,000 unit a year camera - they're just not. They've improved a lot of the technology Hoya ignored, but they have a long way to go. In the USA Denver has done a good job fixing the worst of the Hoya damage, but they have a long way to go. We're not really a market for Pentax yet.

No one really wants a $2,000 K-3 with a bigger sensor - we already have a $800 K-3.
No one really wants a $2,000 D750 - the Pentax FF could have been a D750, but . . . . too late.
People will pay for a D810 at a slightly lower price - that's how they'll make money on a low-volume product.. D810 is $2,999 street right now. $2,699 - $2,799 feels about right to me.

I HOPE there's going to be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, beating of breasts and rending of garments when the actual price is revealed.

If we really get a $2,000€ camera that's bad news. It means they don't have the technology to compete with a D810. That's my fear (and it might be closer to the truth than I want to accept)

Last edited by monochrome; 02-27-2015 at 03:04 PM.
02-27-2015, 03:27 PM - 1 Like   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
Now... if it were a hybrid OVF with a peaking overlay I wouldn't say no to it, either.
And the pentaprism and eyepiece from the 645D/Z too. That would be cool if they could fit it all in.

Maybe that's why the pentaprism hump on the FF model looks nice and large. They are heavily raiding the 645Z parts bin - flippy screen, pentaprism ...
02-27-2015, 03:38 PM - 1 Like   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Caribe Quote
Pentax managed to create excellent image quality with a 16mp sensor, in a time when 18 and 20mp were around with lower IQ. If a FF has 24mp with better IQ than the K3, and the advantages of FF imaging, I wouldn't mind for a second buying a $2000.00 Pentax FF. I think the k3 has a very good crop factor and image size. If a 36mp sensor is even better, well great. My point is, mp count is only good if the image is good and it results in an affordable Pentax quality FF.
A D810 has about 33% better resolution, and based on comparison's with my K-3, it would be really hard for me to go to one now, not enough of a bump.. so I'm not sure what Pentax could do. For the guys who want the Narrow DoF thing a 24 MP FF would do, for landscape, wildlife etc, not so much. I'm kind of waiting to see. They think they have something hot, you can tell... I hope they surprise me. With all that smiling and smirking, I really think they've got something up their sleeve.
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