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03-05-2015, 11:27 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by geomez Quote
Two reasons come to mind.
Those of us, myself included who plan on upgrading to FF that already have DA lenses. The crop mode offers a transition period, so I don't have to run out and immediately spend $5000+ to get my focal length range covered with legacy FF glass.
Second, I have a DA 15mm Ltd. I have an ultra wide angle Sigma zoom. Pentax has a lot of gaps in it's FF glass lineup. AFIK the only thing they have in wide angle is legacy 20mm and 24mm lenses that fetch some big bucks in the used market.
So if Pentax wants their new FF DSLR to be viable and successful, they either need a decent crop mode, or they have to release about twenty D-FA lenses asap.
Yes, I agree with the transition period, people will want the crops during that time, I even pointed that out in my original post.

However, they shouldn't push the envelop of resolution (and cost) to deliver a 50mp sensor just so that we can have a 24mp crop mode. It's just silly as it will hinder other aspects of the cameras performance (primarily buffer speed and fps).


Right now we have no idea what they are doing for lenses outside of the road map, one of those items on the road map is an UWA zoom. So that will cover part of the gap your speaking of. They are releasing the standard "zoom trio" at launch to be able to fill all the gaps for a large portion of shooters out there. Plus that other tele-zoom that is shipping soon. Yes, there is a severe lack of gap for prime lenses, and that needs to be addressed... and Pentaxians appear to typically be prime shooters vs zoom shooters... so I agree that they should flesh that out.

I also don't think Legacy glass is a reasonable replacement for modern DFA lenses that are in the pipeline or are available. Especially on a 36mp camera which will show off the lack of digital era coatings that will impact IQ negatively.

03-05-2015, 11:38 AM   #17
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I have to admit that crop mode sounds like a good idea and definitely makes marketing sense. After all, why does Nikon offer it, eh? On the other hand, it is unlikely that I would ever use such unless I were in a pinch. The reason I can say that is because I already own a nice brace of FF-compatible lenses and intend to keep my K-3 if/when I buy the FF Pentax.

BTW...a 15Mpx cropped image would be quite adequate for me. Even 10Mpx is quite nice if high ISO were clean. I shot with a K10D until just a year ago.

Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 03-05-2015 at 11:44 AM.
03-05-2015, 12:14 PM - 1 Like   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
However, they shouldn't push the envelop of resolution (and cost) to deliver a 50mp sensor just so that we can have a 24mp crop mode. It's just silly as it will hinder other aspects of the cameras performance (primarily buffer speed and fps).
I completely agree. The megapixel game is bogus. It's a cheap marketing tool when it sacrifices low light capabilities and IQ. Pentax claims that this FF body is for us Pentaxians and I feel that the high megapixel marketing ploy is one to attract new users. That said, I don't think Pentax will be joining Canon in pushing an FF sensor at 50 mpx.

It also must be taken into consideration Pentax's drive to sell new lenses. If they make a high megapixel count FF sensor capable of K-3 like results when cropped, I feel there would be less motivation by users to splurge on new FF lenses or even APSC backups.

Last edited by geomez; 03-05-2015 at 03:22 PM.
03-05-2015, 02:43 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by psychdoc Quote
The thread title should be changed to (un-) importance of HIGH-MP crop mode for FF
Your right. That would have been more precise. I donīt think anybody dislikes the idea of crop mode in general.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
However, they shouldn't push the envelop of resolution (and cost) to deliver a 50mp sensor just so that we can have a 24mp crop mode. It's just silly as it will hinder other aspects of the cameras performance (primarily buffer speed and fps).
QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
BTW...a 15Mpx cropped image would be quite adequate for me. Even 10Mpx is quite nice if high ISO were clean. I shot with a K10D until just a year ago.
These were my thoughts when i read users demanding massive pixelcounts to gain a bigger crop result.
I want to use my DA lenses as well with the new FF (if it is affordable for me and fits my needs), but i will keep my K-3 for the dedicated use of these lenses.
But at the moment iīm quite confident that we will get a well rounded product. And the early adopters will have to wait until the lenses will fill all the gaps. Until then i would be happy to use crop mode or my lovely K-3 for these situations.

03-05-2015, 03:04 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
The crop mode conversation is just silly.... are you buying a FF camera to use APSC lenses or FF lenses?

If you want to use APSC lenses, but an APSC camera.
That's what I did, so now I have lots of APSC lenses.
But if Pentax wants to sell their new FF camera to me ( and I guess they want that ) they better make sure it will use my existing lenses just as good as my K5 does. Otherwise I either skip upgrading (they don't want that) or I have to sell all my lenses at once to buy new FF lenses. And if they force me to do that, while not change brand? Pentax obviously don't care.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
p.s. I will NOT buy it if it has a 50mp sensor, thats just stupid to have that many MP.
If they do select a 50MP sensor I'm sure there will be an option where you can have the camera down sample the image and put out a very good 24Mp version raw file. It's a win win win situation, a 24Mp FF down sampled version for normal photo, a 24 Mp crop mode and a 50 Mp FF for those special occasions.
03-05-2015, 03:29 PM - 1 Like   #21
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With the fear of a 50 mp sensor, we must keep in mind that the only FF DSLR that has a sensor this dense is from Canon, and they make their own sensors. Would Pentax push the megapixel envelope? Based on their history in the market, I don't think they would start doing so all of a sudden.
03-05-2015, 03:54 PM - 1 Like   #22
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Maximize the quality of the sensor for full frame, with NO concern for crop mode, NONE. I want it to handle high ISO well. Who says a 12MP crop is bad? My K10d still gives me great 10 mp image files at low ISO.
03-05-2015, 04:44 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
That's what I did, so now I have lots of APSC lenses.
But if Pentax wants to sell their new FF camera to me ( and I guess they want that ) they better make sure it will use my existing lenses just as good as my K5 does. Otherwise I either skip upgrading (they don't want that) or I have to sell all my lenses at once to buy new FF lenses. And if they force me to do that, while not change brand? Pentax obviously don't care.



If they do select a 50MP sensor I'm sure there will be an option where you can have the camera down sample the image and put out a very good 24Mp version raw file. It's a win win win situation, a 24Mp FF down sampled version for normal photo, a 24 Mp crop mode and a 50 Mp FF for those special occasions.
a 36mp will give you an aprox 15mp crop (based on D800 spec list). This will give you similar to K5 overall resolution.

The question is, what is your reference for them using your existing lenses just as good as your K5?

Dynamic range?
Color depth?
overall resolution?
signal to noise ratio?


Crop mode is to HELP you transition, not give you two cameras in one (which is essentially what I'm reading from the majority of people wanting a hi-res crop mode). While I am not opposed to a crop mode, and do think that it is important. I just think that people are putting to much emphasis on it than is needed. At the end of the day you will have to buy new lenses to support a FF K mount body. I came to this realization two years ago and picked up a D800 because I knew I would have to buy new glass anyways, and while I had the money I might as well pull the trigger. The 135mm f2.0 DC was too intriguing to not investigate as well....

This is the logic that I went with... a Full Frame camera is meant to be a Full Frame Camera. It's not designed to be an APSC camera, and it wont perform as good as a dedicated APSC. My K3 (and K5 for that matter), out APSC my D800 any day of the week when it comes to speed, handling, and (without igniting the fov dispute) more reach. My D800 out full-frames my APSC by giving me better wide angle performance and better AF tracking performance. But there is pretty much no image I've taken on my D800 I couldn't have taken on my K3. For web, you don't need anything more than a K20D for resolution. If your printing, that is a different ball game. (I do a lot of prints)



At the end of the day, Pentax doesn't care about your DA lenses being usable long term on the FF. They are even less concerned about your Legacy glass being usable. They care about you buying new glass. Sorry to be blunt, but it's the truth. They don't make money on you using glass you already own. They want you to buy new stuff.


50mp would also be stupidly expensive for a Pentax camera. People are crying about those of us who are realistic in forecasting a $3000 price point. Could you imagine a $4500 price point of a 50mp equipped Pentax? The internet would explode at Pentaxians freaking out and from review sites screaming at how stupid Pentax were being.

03-05-2015, 05:50 PM - 2 Likes   #24
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don't fear the MP

QuoteOriginally posted by DeadJohn Quote
I'll continue to dream of a FF 50mp camera. That would allow a high resolution crop mode (so there's no need to carry a companion APS-C body to use with non-FF lenses we already have). Equally important, it could allow Ricoh to implement a 2x2 binning feature for 12.5mp FF low-light mode. Yes, binning can be done during post-processing with current cameras, but if it's built into the camera then liveview would work much better at night.

I don't expect to see the above features, but it could theoretically beat the Nikon D810 for resolution and the Sony A7s for low light, all in a single body.
I agree.

Some folks are assuming 50MP means 'more noise', but there's no real reason to think Sony would be putting out a sensor that's a step back in SNR. The 36MP D800 exmor was not more noisy than the 24MP FF sensor or the 12MP D700 sensor. In other words, you can get the same or better noise and more resolution at the same time.

I don't see a real-life drawback to 50MP, besides larger file sizes.

Also a prediction I made in 2012 is starting to come to pass: the 36MP is starting to be seen as the 'sane' choice in the face of even higher-mp sensors, even by some of the same people who said 36MP was "too much" and un-needed

---------- Post added 03-05-15 at 07:06 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
a 36mp will give you an aprox 15mp crop (based on D800 spec list). This will give you similar to K5 overall resolution.

The question is, what is your reference for them using your existing lenses just as good as your K5?

Dynamic range?
Color depth?
overall resolution?
signal to noise ratio?
With the existing 36MP Exmor for example, all of the above would be the same or slightly better in 1.5x crop than a K5 native output. We'd assume the same would apply to 54MP FF vs. native K3 output.


QuoteQuote:
At the end of the day, Pentax doesn't care about your DA lenses being usable long term on the FF.
I think what they do care about is removing doubts for people on the fence about upgrading to the new FF body.

A nice, high-res crop mode that keeps people's DA/aps-c lenses performing the same as on the K5 (36MP FF) or K3 (54MP FF) removes that doubt for a lot of people.

I know I wouldn't be happy about jumping to FF if a good portion of my glass was completely stranded in aps-c.

.
QuoteQuote:
50mp would also be stupidly expensive for a Pentax camera.
How about (seriously) :

K-FF = 36MP, $2100 initial MSRP
*and*
K-FFx = 54MP, $3100 initial MSRP


Last edited by jsherman999; 03-05-2015 at 06:28 PM.
03-05-2015, 07:19 PM - 1 Like   #25
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People people people. They're making a camera for us. It will be a great canera for as many of us as they can make it be.

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03-05-2015, 08:14 PM   #26
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Your right. That would have been more precise. I donīt think anybody dislikes the idea of crop mode in general.

This is my opinion only,if we buy a FF why do we need a crop option.we buy a FF to take better photos if we use Jpegs it would be useful but ,using raw the image circle it can be cropped to any size the lens covers

There are plenty of cameras for APSC that you can get 3x2 photos straight out of the camera that can be used with lenses and take Jpegs with no cropping..
03-05-2015, 10:09 PM   #27
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Another reason I don't think they'll go 50mp...
Look at their current dslr lineup.

K-S1/S2 = 20mp
K-3 = 24mp
645A = 51mp

Am I the only one that sees the glaring hole where the FF will fit? They won't go 24mp. They already have a 24mp dslr. They won't go 50mp. They already have a 51mp dslr. It makes the most logical sense for them to bridge the mp gap and format gap with a 36mp FF camera.
03-06-2015, 02:45 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
Crop mode is to HELP you transition, not give you two cameras in one (which is essentially what I'm reading from the majority of people wanting a hi-res crop mode). While I am not opposed to a crop mode, and do think that it is important. I just think that people are putting to much emphasis on it than is needed. At the end of the day you will have to buy new lenses to support a FF K mount body. I came to this realization two years ago and picked up a D800 because I knew I would have to buy new glass anyways, and while I had the money I might as well pull the trigger. The 135mm f2.0 DC was too intriguing to not investigate as well....
That assumes people want to make a transition. My current intention is rather different.

I intend to run two (sub)systems: a "proper" FF range for when weight and size are not an issue, and an APS-C range as a more portable but still high quality option.

So I expect to have most of this year's D FA lenses for use with the FF camera, (and I've already pre-ordered the first two of them, 2 kilograms each!) Those will be in addition to other FF lenses, such as my D FA 100mm Macro WR, and Samyang Tilt/Shift. Then I'll keep a reasonably comprehensive APS-C system, mostly based on what I have. This camera will also act as a back-up to the FF camera just in case.

So I'll mix-n-match depending on circumstances, and not need a fully comprehensive set of FF lenses. For example: I may carry on with my existing DA 10-17mm Fisheye, rather than replace it with .... what?
03-06-2015, 03:34 AM   #29
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I don't suppose it is any big deal either way. The big thing (I think) is that Pentax not force all DA lenses to be shot with some type of auto crop. If a DA 40 has vignetting in the corners, let me decide how far in I want to crop that in post. But I wouldn't be surprised if people have the choice of SR versus auto crop mode with the DA lenses.

As to whether or not I need 50+ megapixels, the answer is no. I would be completely happy shooting 24 megapixels or 20 megapixels on full frame when I need what that offers and using a K3 when I need a little more reach or the things APS-C offers. It looks like 36 megapixels is the flavor of the day and that is fine, but I'm not really excited about file sizes. I need a new hard drive already...
03-06-2015, 04:50 AM   #30
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Thats why 50Mp is a good solution. You can have the 50Mp when you need it, you can get the same reach as a K3 and you can use a downsampled output for normal everyday photography. That said, I also think they will settle for 36Mp (which is good enough really, but not great). And the major reason being to give some obvious space for improvments for the next FF body.
If they settle for 24Mp I'm out.
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