Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
03-06-2015, 06:39 AM   #1
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 363
The FF and the 645D ... how might they co-exist

As everyone else seems to be having fun guessing what is coming with the FF, it seems interesting to ponder how the FF will co-exist with the 645D. This camera is likely to be close/maybe bigger on the pixel front, but will there be differentiation between DR and other important image quality issues?


The existing Pentax digital community has invested in DA lenses, the FF lenses out there were not designed for digital for the most part, (exception the DFA 100mm Macro), but will still work beautifully I am sure, just as they do on the current ASPC bodies.


If the FF comes closes to the price of the 645D, I certainly might consider moving to that format, even with it's speed limitations.


I guess my personal opinion is not really the point, but where is Pentax going to put it's investment for the future. They seem to be very pleased with market acceptance for the 645D and 645Z, which is selling better than they thought.


This product line seems like it's a great value, if you can afford the entry price. With legacy 645 glass seems this is still an attractive solution, with prices of the 645D now in the 3k range for a lightly used version.


Thoughts?

03-06-2015, 07:16 AM   #2
Site Supporter




Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Richland, Washington, USA
Posts: 873
From Pentax's perspective, I don't think the 645D and FF will compete. New 645D's still cost almost $5000 and the speculation I've read so far seems to believe the FF will be half that (of course, it's just speculation). Used prices are good on the D but that doesn't help Pentax. I'd be inclined to think the 645D will be discontinued after the FF is released, particularly if the FF sensor resolution is up around 36 mp. At that point new buyers are either going to save for the Z or go FF, and I can't see D sales staying strong enough to justify continued production.

There, you now have my totally uninformed wild guess.
03-06-2015, 07:24 AM   #3
Inactive Account




Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 6
I would expect the 135/FF format to be more practical than the 645D for most purposes.


You've already mentioned the limited ISO with the 645D. The 645D has roughly 12.5 stops of DR; even the current Super35/APSC sensors are already at 13 stops or so. There's no live view on the 645D, which makes it cumbersome to use for product work. Also, don't forget that shots on the 645D will take a few seconds to finish saving to card. The 135 body should (hopefully) have better AF capabilities than the 645D as well.


Typically medium format sensors from PhaseOne and Hasselblad have better color fidelity than 135 sensors, due to the narrower band-pass of color filter arrays they use. However, I'm not sure the 645D's CFA is any better than the existing pentax S35 sensors. The 645D would be slightly higher resolution, especially if the 135 sensor turns out to be 24MP or so. But even then, the difference between 24 and 40 isn't THAT huge.


Like all things medium format, you're really paying for the ergonomics and the showmanship of using a giant sensor. Most of the folks I personally know (including a couple of big-budget ad campaign shooters) are using strictly 135 sensors for their work. Some still have their P1 gear, but only because they enjoy using it for personal projects.


I suppose it's like an old classic car vs new models: the new model is objectively better in most ways, more affordable, and more maintainable. But the classics have that touch of nostalgia that appeals to those who can afford it.
03-06-2015, 08:22 AM   #4
Senior Member




Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 117
QuoteOriginally posted by pentax67shooter4life Quote

645D would be slightly higher resolution, especially if the 135 sensor turns out to be 24MP or so. But even then, the difference between 24 and 40 isn't THAT huge.


Like all things medium format, you're really paying for the ergonomics and the showmanship of using a giant sensor. Most of the folks I personally know (including a couple of big-budget ad campaign shooters) are using strictly 135 sensors for their work. Some still have their P1 gear, but only because they enjoy using it for personal projects.
Ergonomics on medium format cameras is not that good. Pentax 645D/Z would be the exception. The draw for MF is resolution and depth of field. DSLR's are closing the resolution gap but DOF will only be addressed by sensor size.

I have both the K3 & the 645D and there is still a significant difference between 24 and 40 MP. If the upcoming Pentax FF has a 36MP sensor, the gap in resolution compared to the 645D would be almost negligible and the newer sensor should have better ISO range as well. For a 36MP or higher resolution sensor, Pentax will need to upgrade its Prime processor's capability and data throughput to get a reasonable framerate and write performance because most photographers would not stand for 645D level of performance.

03-06-2015, 08:37 AM   #5
Site Supporter
gofour3's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Posts: 5,124
In the film days Pentax had four formats going, with bodies and lenses.

- 110
- 35mm
- 645
- 6x7

This wasn’t an issue back then and shouldn’t be in the digital age.

Phil

Last edited by gofour3; 03-06-2015 at 08:46 AM.
03-06-2015, 08:39 AM   #6
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jan 2014
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 363
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by robertchow999 Quote
Ergonomics on medium format cameras is not that good. Pentax 645D/Z would be the exception. The draw for MF is resolution and depth of field. DSLR's are closing the resolution gap but DOF will only be addressed by sensor size.

I have both the K3 & the 645D and there is still a significant difference between 24 and 40 MP. If the upcoming Pentax FF has a 36MP sensor, the gap in resolution compared to the 645D would be almost negligible and the newer sensor should have better ISO range as well. For a 36MP or higher resolution sensor, Pentax will need to upgrade its Prime processor's capability and data throughput to get a reasonable framerate and write performance because most photographers would not stand for 645D level of performance.




So if the FF has these specs would you stick with the 645D? Do you overcome the DR issue by bracketing on the 645D?
03-06-2015, 08:59 AM   #7
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Southern Indiana
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 14,955
The thing to me about the 645D is that it is a camera that seems to do best at a few specific things, particularly landscape and portraiture, while the full frame will be a jack of all trades. The biggest difference to me isn't cost of the camera, but cost of lenses, where the medium format portfolio is really pricey.
03-06-2015, 09:02 AM   #8
Pentaxian
aleonx3's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Brampton, Ontario
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,873
Why not? Aside from the price difference, the lenses for 645D/Z and FF are not interchangeable.

03-06-2015, 09:41 AM   #9
Pentaxian
Wired's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edmonton, AB
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,494
To not cripple 645z sales, the camera will be either 24mp or 36mp. Most likely 36mp due to the 16/20/24/52 mp ranges all ready present in the lineup.

Anyone who thinks the FF will be 50mp is smoking something wicked, and I want some.
03-06-2015, 11:18 AM   #10
Pentaxian
kooks's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Josť, Costa Rica
Photos: Albums
Posts: 627
Is not just a matter of MP .. size, portability, available lenses, etc ... and other features that MF are not the best.
03-06-2015, 11:56 AM   #11
Pentaxian
Wired's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Edmonton, AB
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,494
QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Is not just a matter of MP .. size, portability, available lenses, etc ... and other features that MF are not the best.
not to mention skill level.



We saw this already from K5 to K3 (the sharpness concern)

Now when people move upto 35mm format they will see how forgiving APS-C is compared to a FF body, especially at 36mp sensor resolution. (took me about 2 months to fully settle in with my D800)

For those that have tried medium format, digital or film, know how unforgiving the format is.

Last edited by Wired; 03-06-2015 at 01:06 PM.
03-06-2015, 12:26 PM   #12
Pentaxian
pete-tarmigan's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Conception Bay South, New-fun-land
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 945
QuoteOriginally posted by jrpower10 Quote
From Pentax's perspective, I don't think the 645D and FF will compete. New 645D's still cost almost $5000 and the speculation I've read so far seems to believe the FF will be half that (of course, it's just speculation). Used prices are good on the D but that doesn't help Pentax. I'd be inclined to think the 645D will be discontinued after the FF is released, particularly if the FF sensor resolution is up around 36 mp.
Are you saying the 645D is still being manufactured?
03-06-2015, 12:42 PM   #13
Pentaxian
kooks's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: San Josť, Costa Rica
Photos: Albums
Posts: 627
QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
not to mention skill level.



We saw this already from K5 to K3 (the sharpness concern)

Now when people move upto 35mm format they will see how forgiving APS-C is compared to a FF body, especially at 36mp sensor resolution. (took me about 2 months to fully settle in with my D810)

For those that have tried medium format, digital or film, know how unforgiving the format is.
exactly...
03-06-2015, 04:26 PM   #14
Site Supporter
6BQ5's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Nevada, USA
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,064
QuoteOriginally posted by mikeodial Quote
As everyone else seems to be having fun guessing what is coming with the FF, it seems interesting to ponder how the FF will co-exist with the 645D. This camera is likely to be close/maybe bigger on the pixel front, but will there be differentiation between DR and other important image quality issues?

The existing Pentax digital community has invested in DA lenses, the FF lenses out there were not designed for digital for the most part, (exception the DFA 100mm Macro), but will still work beautifully I am sure, just as they do on the current ASPC bodies.

If the FF comes closes to the price of the 645D, I certainly might consider moving to that format, even with it's speed limitations.

I guess my personal opinion is not really the point, but where is Pentax going to put it's investment for the future. They seem to be very pleased with market acceptance for the 645D and 645Z, which is selling better than they thought.

This product line seems like it's a great value, if you can afford the entry price. With legacy 645 glass seems this is still an attractive solution, with prices of the 645D now in the 3k range for a lightly used version.

Thoughts?
I thought the 645D is out of production. Whatever is being sold as "new" is really "new old stock". Once store stock is sold then it's gone for good.

If you meant the 645Z then that's a different topic. The recent interview with Ricoh posted on Imaging Resources highlights how the FF and MF formats can co-exist. The cameras are made for different applications, different customers, and different glass. All of this results in two different image renderings.
03-07-2015, 05:24 AM   #15
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Albuquerque
Posts: 1,120
QuoteOriginally posted by pete-tarmigan Quote
Are you saying the 645D is still being manufactured?
My impression is the same as 6BQ5's. Still sold new, but not being manufactured.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
24x36mm, 645d, ff, full-frame, lenses, pentax, price
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WR and primes: Do they exist? Suleeto Pentax SLR Lens Discussion 5 01-09-2015 06:59 PM
How to push the Pentax Full-Frame Idea and get that FF out faster... Adam Pentax Full Frame 1493 10-06-2014 07:00 AM
Do the 645D and 645z share the same battery ? larkis Pentax Medium Format 2 09-23-2014 02:35 AM
645D Rentals (yes they do exist) MRRiley Pentax Medium Format 6 07-04-2011 12:32 AM
How good are things going for Pentax? Will they still exist in say 50 years? Student Pentax DSLR Discussion 43 02-21-2011 08:28 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:55 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top