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06-12-2015, 09:40 AM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mothballs Quote
The only full frame I've actually liked was the Nikon DF. Work of art.

At this point, I'd need something like that too even consider buying a full frame, Pentax or not.

Hell, I know a few folk who would Kill for a Pentax "Spotmatic-D" as the one put it. something like a 16mp workhorse full frame with manual controls and less frills for just over a grand would sell like hotcakes...

Still, here's hoping the flagship full frame is everything they can make.
Minimalist cameras tend to cost more since they appeal to fewer buyers, and they may not agree on what should/has to be left away.

Think Caterham. For the price of a Caterham you can get a really nice family car, and the Caterham won't even have doors or windows/windscreen. Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche charge extra for leaving away things.

@normhead: That's very pragmatic. I could take my commercial photos with almost anything. And I did. Ancient Pentax, very lowly and old Sony, good Pentax, ... The client didn't care, the results were perfectly fine. What matters more to me is how it feels, if I will bring the camera along all the time (big cameras fail at this), if it inspires me to take photos and try things. A K-5 is the limit, more than that and I would leave it at home, collecting dust.

For stills I think most serious cameras are good enough. In terms of quality. Video is different. There is much greater variety. Ergonomics and size too.


Last edited by kadajawi; 06-12-2015 at 09:47 AM.
06-12-2015, 10:21 AM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Minimalist cameras tend to cost more since they appeal to fewer buyers, and they may not agree on what should/has to be left away.

Think Caterham. For the price of a Caterham you can get a really nice family car, and the Caterham won't even have doors or windows/windscreen. Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche charge extra for leaving away things.
The only thing I have to say there is that the k-1000 stuck around for how long as a basic workhorse? A digital version of it would, as I said, sell like hotcakes. I really think Pentax is missing out on this one.

I'm thinking basic. It would sell.
06-12-2015, 10:34 AM - 1 Like   #78
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A K-1000-D for a thousand dollars would sell like hot cakes. I'd even suffer with the needle matching meter and no AE. As long as I could produce the best possible image for the least possible price, I'd be all over that. I used that kind of camera for years, because for me buying the "Pro" bodies with all the bells and whistles wasn't worth the money. There's not much different at the moment. Make the thing a work of art and design a removable sensor, shutter, processing and exposure assemblies, so I can do black box upgrades and I'll even throw in an extra couple of hundred. Make it nice and big to accommodate future improvements and sell upgrade modules for those who want them. After all, my K-1000 wasn't shooting the same film after 15 years it was when I bought it.

Pentax used to love guys like me, apparently they don't anymore.

They used to understand, a guy who buys the most basic camera, can still buy and use the most expensive glass out there. They've forgotten.
06-12-2015, 10:53 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mothballs Quote
The only thing I have to say there is that the k-1000 stuck around for how long as a basic workhorse? A digital version of it would, as I said, sell like hotcakes. I really think Pentax is missing out on this one.

I'm thinking basic. It would sell.
No, it won't sell.
Think about it - if it was that easy, everybody would have done it already. After all, developing features is more expensive and time consuming than not doing it. But, the market wants features, and performance, and products that take pictures on their behalf (I'm aware of the exceptions). Even Leica is adding features on their cameras.

As it was said, a stripped down camera will be more expensive - much more so than the Df compared to the D610. Caterham is a good example.

And it's quite complicated to have such a product, while the cost savings aren't that big. About everything from a fully featured DSLR will be there, with the most notable exception being the AF system; perhaps even the back LCD if you'd go extreme. But the real trick is: how about lenses? Yes, a new line of lenses, optimized for manual focusing would be needed - at least a few primes.

06-12-2015, 11:24 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
No, it won't sell.
Think about it - if it was that easy, everybody would have done it already. After all, developing features is more expensive and time consuming than not doing it. But, the market wants features, and performance, and products that take pictures on their behalf (I'm aware of the exceptions). Even Leica is adding features on their cameras.

As it was said, a stripped down camera will be more expensive - much more so than the Df compared to the D610. Caterham is a good example.

And it's quite complicated to have such a product, while the cost savings aren't that big. About everything from a fully featured DSLR will be there, with the most notable exception being the AF system; perhaps even the back LCD if you'd go extreme. But the real trick is: how about lenses? Yes, a new line of lenses, optimized for manual focusing would be needed - at least a few primes.
Thing is, the guy above and almost every pentax user I talk to around here WOULD buy it. If market demand was expressed louder it would happen: and with the amount of manual film shooters I sell bodies to, there's still a market for all manual. Pentax would be smart to try and get that market well before someone else tried.

But clearly we disagree.

Meanwhile, I should make a petition to Pentax for the development of such a camera and get enough signatures or survey questions to show there is a market.
06-12-2015, 12:53 PM   #81
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At most you're getting a few non-committal "yeah, I'd want one" - but would they pay Leica prices? And Zeiss prices for lenses? I know I wouldn't.
Norm for example talks about $1000; I don't dare to ask if he would use old lenses. No chance, just removing the video raised the price for the Df to D810 levels; imagine what would happen if you remove AF and back LCD as well.

Last edited by Kunzite; 06-12-2015 at 01:01 PM.
06-12-2015, 01:14 PM - 2 Likes   #82
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Personally I think there could be a market for a stripped-down-to-basics DSLR. Of course it depends on exactly what this would be, but I think there is a big market within education for something like this, though it would have to be fairly low-cost. Working in higher education myself, a camera which forgoes automation and has just the fundamental photographic controls would be a godsend when trying to teach students the basics. Current low-end DSLRs have the wrong feature set for education generally, losing things like dedicated dials and viewfinder quality, whilst still having a myriad of menu items and options which only serve to confuse students and draw their attention away from more important controls.

One thing I would like to see in any education-oriented camera is an emphasis on whole-stop values for aperture/shutter speed. It's much harder for students to understand the relationships and significance of these controls when third- or half- stops look exactly the same as whole stops. It just becomes a blur of numbers which they will never remember. That's where the old shutter speed and aperture dials helped. I'm not saying it's necessary to go back to that, or to lose third-stop control, but some kind of indicator to show that a setting is a whole stop would be a start (I actually think this should be implemented on all cameras as standard).

Whether Pentax are best placed to take advantage of this market I'm not sure. Many people working in education now will remember the K1000 as the staple education camera, so they have an advantage there.
06-12-2015, 01:47 PM   #83
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i figured the DF was so expensive because of the full mechanical controls, which adds some complexity to the design vs just e-triggering everything and letting software handle it. The camera is pretty over built and all metal. There is no cost cutting, no corners cut. Go and hold one, use one. It's amazing. It's price isn't from removing options.

QuoteOriginally posted by jonby Quote
Personally I think there could be a market for a stripped-down-to-basics DSLR. Of course it depends on exactly what this would be, but I think there is a big market within education for something like this, though it would have to be fairly low-cost. Working in higher education myself, a camera which forgoes automation and has just the fundamental photographic controls would be a godsend when trying to teach students the basics. Current low-end DSLRs have the wrong feature set for education generally, losing things like dedicated dials and viewfinder quality, whilst still having a myriad of menu items and options which only serve to confuse students and draw their attention away from more important controls.

One thing I would like to see in any education-oriented camera is an emphasis on whole-stop values for aperture/shutter speed. It's much harder for students to understand the relationships and significance of these controls when third- or half- stops look exactly the same as whole stops. It just becomes a blur of numbers which they will never remember. That's where the old shutter speed and aperture dials helped. I'm not saying it's necessary to go back to that, or to lose third-stop control, but some kind of indicator to show that a setting is a whole stop would be a start (I actually think this should be implemented on all cameras as standard).

Whether Pentax are best placed to take advantage of this market I'm not sure. Many people working in education now will remember the K1000 as the staple education camera, so they have an advantage there.
That's a good set of points. I feel that this should probably get it's own thread at some point however, as we are getting a bit off topic.

06-12-2015, 01:53 PM   #84
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I shoot a Canon 5D iii full frame and a Pentax K3 ii. When you are really working and I mean working as a photographer, it is nice to have the size of a FF body such as Canon and Nikon. It is much easier to find the buttons you are looking for without actually looking at the camera. As well. It gives you something to really hold on to.
06-12-2015, 03:51 PM   #85
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The main problem with stripping down the camera is that most features are more or less free, removing them would mean custom parts that cost extra, or deactivating in software. Video doesn't cost, it is part of the processor. Different AE modes (unless you drop the exposure meter completely). All the smart stuff the camera does. For the most part they would only deactivate things that are already there. Dropping AF could save money I reckon, and improve OVF quality. But there are few lenses out there (new) meant for MF. And some DO want some assistance. People want to drop different things. Some still want AF. etc.

Everything limits the user base and thus increases cost.

Would you also be ok spending $3000 for the K1000D? Instead of a $2500 model that is fully featured?

Don't get me wrong. I like old, minimalist cameras. In my case the Nikon FM2, my first love. But would I pay more for the digital equivalent than for a normal, fully featured camera? I don't think so. And I think I'd rather shoot film in that case.
06-12-2015, 04:30 PM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
And I think I'd rather shoot film in that case.
Exactly. My old Pentax MX and a M lens or two (or my Olympus XA) is all I need if I want to do minimalist.
06-12-2015, 10:07 PM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Exactly. My old Pentax MX and a M lens or two (or my Olympus XA) is all I need if I want to do minimalist.
KX | KX | MX | LX | XA

Invested money in all of the above is less for the cameras than the CLA's, and less than a K-3 combined. Adding together all my film exposures I shoot a couple rolls twice a month, so fewer than 600 a year. A tenth of my K-3 clicks.

I have no interest in a throwback digital camera because I can turn off anything I want turned off on the K-3, shoot in M and manually focus every modern lens I own.

We forget that PF has only 50,000 or so members. If 10% of us actually bought a K-1000d they couldn't do it. They make their money on the 250,000 buyers per dSLR model who aren't crazy PF members - they're just invisible family photographers who buy a new camera body and kit lens every six or eight years. They want all the latest features and shop by feature comparison checklist, then price.
06-13-2015, 03:17 AM   #88
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A digital K-1000 wouldn't be significantly cheaper than a D600 or a 6D and it would sell a lot less copies. Leaving off the back LCD, dropping auto focus while decreasing the component costs would really jack up the cost by decreasing the number of people interested in the camera. Things like video and live view are inexpensive in the sense that they are software implementations of all current sensor's existing capabilities.

People want a cheap full frame? The best thing would be for Pentax to abandon the k mount and SLR design and go mirrorless. From what I can tell that is where cheap is going. I don't want to see that happen, but something NEX-ish would be a whole lot cheaper than a K1000 with manual controls and no video.
07-07-2015, 10:53 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote

People want a cheap full frame? The best thing would be for Pentax to abandon the k mount and SLR design and go mirrorless. From what I can tell that is where cheap is going. I don't want to see that happen, but something NEX-ish would be a whole lot cheaper than a K1000 with manual controls and no video.
Personally I will buy a full frame version of K01 with ergonomically acceptable grip and evf for $500. That's $200 more than the current price of K50. I am very much willing to trade the OVF + $200 for the extra sensor size. It is K mount, it is mirror less, It has SR, it is Pentax and if it has FF sensor it is reasonably cheap. Perfectly fine with me
07-08-2015, 12:06 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by nomadkng Quote
I really doubt anyone is going to switch FF systems just because of size. That's a big investment. Features and performance are going to get Canikonians to switch, if any actually will, which I seriously doubt. Maybe some newer APS-C Canikonians will venture to Pentax FF, but not with this first release. Furthermore, if this new Pentax FF is anything less than a true Flagship K (think D810), you may actually see many Pentaxians jump ship. And you won't get that in a lightweight compact bundle.

Realistically, I don't even think sticking a FF sensor in a Q would pull others from the dark side. And personally, I think the K3 is too SMALL. I much preferred the K10....
Everyone I've ever talked to who switched from using 5DII to K-5II were because of size
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