A recent full frame experience

aleonx3 · 07-08-2015, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by shaolen

Everyone I've ever talked to who switched from using 5DII to K-5II were because of size

May be... but IMHO, I also prefer the color rendition from my k-5II/k-3 than my friends' 5DII/III.

shaolen · 07-08-2015, 12:26 PM

I agree with lakai. In fact id like it if they literally took the K-01 body and stuck FF sensor in it.

KX5 · 07-13-2015, 06:12 AM

Owner of an A7, i enjoy to use focus peaking with manual lenses. It's only possible with EVF. So the best thing Pentax should do is to use it on its new FF body. But i suppose they will keep the old optical pentaprism system. So i don't expect to use old manual Pentax lenses with the new K1(?). Wait & see.

kadajawi · 07-13-2015, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by KX5

Owner of an A7, i enjoy to use focus peaking with manual lenses. It's only possible with EVF. So the best thing Pentax should do is to use it on its new FF body. But i suppose they will keep the old optical pentaprism system. So i don't expect to use old manual Pentax lenses with the new K1(?). Wait & see.

At FF though the viewfinders become better... perhaps good enough for manual focusing. Not with focus peaking of course, but we're getting closer to the old 35mm experience. Especially if Pentax manages to implement a mirror that only redirects light to the AF sensors when you are actually focusing. That way we'd get a really bright and big FF viewfinder, just like in the old days from before AF.

KX5 · 07-13-2015, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by kadajawi

At FF though the viewfinders become better... perhaps good enough for manual focusing. Not with focus peaking of course, but we're getting closer to the old 35mm experience. Especially if Pentax manages to implement a mirror that only redirects light to the AF sensors when you are actually focusing. That way we'd get a really bright and big FF viewfinder, just like in the old days from before AF.

You are talking about rangefinder system like Leica camera. But not compatible with actual Pentax Lenses which use SLR system.
I keep in mind my wonderful Canon AE-1 program which has a HUGE viewfinder with a complete and clear manual focus system. Canon AE-1 have split screen viewfinders which cut the image in half and you have to line the cut image up in order to focus. It is very accurate and fast. Technically it's possible to adopt it on a digital camera.

kadajawi · 07-13-2015, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by KX5

You are talking about rangefinder system like Leica camera. But not compatible with actual Pentax Lenses which use SLR system.
I keep in mind my wonderful Canon AE-1 program which has a HUGE viewfinder with a complete and clear manual focus system. Canon AE-1 have split screen viewfinders which cut the image in half and you have to line the cut image up in order to focus. It is very accurate and fast. Technically it's possible to adopt it on a digital camera.

No, I was talking about SLRs... the Nikon FM2 in particular. The reason those had a great viewfinder compared to what we use today is a) full frame and b) the mirror reflects 100% of the light, unlike newer AF SLRs and DSLRs where something like 1/3 of the light is being sent to the AF sensor. If you have a mirror (Ricoh has the patents?) where you can switch between 100%, 66%, 50%, ... you can a) have a great, bright MF viewfinder and b) have an AF system that works in really low light situations... if necessary all the light is simply redirected to the PDAF system. Cameras with PDAF sensors on the sensor can't compete with that, because they need to squeeze much smaller PDAF sensors next to the image sensors. They aren't as sensitive.

I truly hope this is what Pentax will add to their DSLRs, both APS-C and FF. That plus better video functionality and I'm sold, mirrorless be damned.

jonby · 07-13-2015, 11:25 AM

Originally posted by kadajawi

Especially if Pentax manages to implement a mirror that only redirects light to the AF sensors when you are actually focusing. That way we'd get a really bright and big FF viewfinder, just like in the old days from before AF.

Yes that would be great - at last a focusing screen which you can actually focus with. Do you think this is likely though?

If it could be done then I guess one issue would be that the viewfinder would go dimmer while autofocusing, which would no doubt bother some people (not me).

kadajawi · 07-13-2015, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by jonby

Yes that would be great - at last a focusing screen which you can actually focus with. Do you think this is likely though?

If it could be done then I guess one issue would be that the viewfinder would go dimmer while autofocusing, which would no doubt bother some people (not me).

You can install a focusing screen which you can actually focus with, but it will be too dim and small in most situations. I had it in my previous Pentax. Without the dimming mirror it's a bit pointless, at least for my eyes.

I wouldn't mind about the dimming viewfinder, and for those who are bothered by it there could be a setting to have it behave like usual.

Cynog Ap Brychan · 07-13-2015, 02:38 PM

I have no problems manually focusing legacy glass on my Nikon Df and D810, so I do not foresee any problems with a Pentax full-frame camera.

KX5 · 07-13-2015, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan

I have no problems manually focusing legacy glass on my Nikon Df and D810, so I do not foresee any problems with a Pentax full-frame camera.

The green dot is not sufficent when you make street photography or moving subject. Telemetric system and EVF system are the best for the moment for manual focus. Digital SLR has a limitation about that. We could seriously imagine a solution including the same digital back system of Hasselblad. You would give to your old film bodies a second life!

kadajawi · 07-13-2015, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by KX5

The green dot is not sufficent when you make street photography or moving subject. Telemetric system and EVF system are the best for the moment for manual focus. Digital SLR has a limitation about that. We could seriously imagine a solution including the same digital back system of Hasselblad. You would give to your old film bodies a second life!

A digital back would stick out a lot (look at the marking of the sensor position in your DSLR... it's quite far inside the body, the part from there until the rear is necessary... it would be a rather ungainly and unbalanced camera), it would be camera specific (meaning that only the most popular bodies could be covered), and it would be produced in very small numbers --> high prices... new cameras make more sense.

Cynog Ap Brychan · 07-14-2015, 04:00 AM

Originally posted by KX5

The green dot is not sufficent when you make street photography or moving subject. Telemetric system and EVF system are the best for the moment for manual focus. Digital SLR has a limitation about that. We could seriously imagine a solution including the same digital back system of Hasselblad. You would give to your old film bodies a second life!

I don't use the green dot: my eyes tell me when the subject is in focus, and this works with my very active granddaughter. I don't find EVF any quicker or easier (rather the opposite, but maybe that's me). But amen to something that turns an old film camera into a digital. I have dozens of lovely film cameras, both 35 mm and medium format.

kadajawi · 07-14-2015, 05:32 AM

The problem with converting film to digital is that film is a very thin thing, and behind that the camera has essentially ended. In a digital camera however the sensor is much thicker. Then comes the SR mechanism if present, which is also thicker. Maybe a motherboard, where else would you put it? And then the display, though you may drop it. But in any case, it is going to be too thick to fit into a film camera. So they need to create a new back. But it ruins the design, and every model needs a different back.

So... it would be nice, but technically it isn't feasible. Certainly it isn't worth the investment, people would want it to be cheaper than a stand alone camera.

cali92rs · 07-21-2015, 02:58 PM

I recently switched back to Pentax after a short stint with the Canon 6D.
Long story short, the IQ from Canon and their L lenses are superb. But it just was not fun lugging that kit around. I do not get paid to do this, so for me, it was not worth it.
Also, the 6D, while it's IQ was excellent, its AF was pretty poor. If I wanted to upgrade to a 5D3 for better AF, that would mean a slight loss in IQ and over $1000 more.
Shallower DOF was nice, and noticeable, but I got over that aspect of it.

The K-3 was the body I was waiting for...markedly better AF than the K-5 and not much bigger. The difference in size between my K-3ii +77mm vs the 6D + 135mm L is striking.

**hjoseph7** · 07-21-2015, 05:58 PM

It's not only the camera, the Canikon lenses are also HUGE. I still have a Canon 30D which is one of the smallest ASP-C DSLR cameras Canon has ever built and it's huge sitting next to my K-5II. Put a lens on it and it's like comparing a Gorilla to a Chimpanzee !

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07-08-2015, 12:13 PM	#91
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by shaolen Everyone I've ever talked to who switched from using 5DII to K-5II were because of size May be... but IMHO, I also prefer the color rendition from my k-5II/k-3 than my friends' 5DII/III.

07-08-2015, 12:26 PM	#92
shaolen Veteran Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Phoenix AZ Posts: 1,047	I agree with lakai. In fact id like it if they literally took the K-01 body and stuck FF sensor in it.

07-13-2015, 06:12 AM	#93
KX5 Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 72	Owner of an A7, i enjoy to use focus peaking with manual lenses. It's only possible with EVF. So the best thing Pentax should do is to use it on its new FF body. But i suppose they will keep the old optical pentaprism system. So i don't expect to use old manual Pentax lenses with the new K1(?). Wait & see.

07-13-2015, 07:26 AM	#94
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by KX5 Owner of an A7, i enjoy to use focus peaking with manual lenses. It's only possible with EVF. So the best thing Pentax should do is to use it on its new FF body. But i suppose they will keep the old optical pentaprism system. So i don't expect to use old manual Pentax lenses with the new K1(?). Wait & see. At FF though the viewfinders become better... perhaps good enough for manual focusing. Not with focus peaking of course, but we're getting closer to the old 35mm experience. Especially if Pentax manages to implement a mirror that only redirects light to the AF sensors when you are actually focusing. That way we'd get a really bright and big FF viewfinder, just like in the old days from before AF.

07-13-2015, 09:17 AM	#95
KX5 Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 72	Originally posted by kadajawi At FF though the viewfinders become better... perhaps good enough for manual focusing. Not with focus peaking of course, but we're getting closer to the old 35mm experience. Especially if Pentax manages to implement a mirror that only redirects light to the AF sensors when you are actually focusing. That way we'd get a really bright and big FF viewfinder, just like in the old days from before AF. You are talking about rangefinder system like Leica camera. But not compatible with actual Pentax Lenses which use SLR system. I keep in mind my wonderful Canon AE-1 program which has a HUGE viewfinder with a complete and clear manual focus system. Canon AE-1 have split screen viewfinders which cut the image in half and you have to line the cut image up in order to focus. It is very accurate and fast. Technically it's possible to adopt it on a digital camera.

07-13-2015, 11:25 AM	#96
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by KX5 You are talking about rangefinder system like Leica camera. But not compatible with actual Pentax Lenses which use SLR system. I keep in mind my wonderful Canon AE-1 program which has a HUGE viewfinder with a complete and clear manual focus system. Canon AE-1 have split screen viewfinders which cut the image in half and you have to line the cut image up in order to focus. It is very accurate and fast. Technically it's possible to adopt it on a digital camera. No, I was talking about SLRs... the Nikon FM2 in particular. The reason those had a great viewfinder compared to what we use today is a) full frame and b) the mirror reflects 100% of the light, unlike newer AF SLRs and DSLRs where something like 1/3 of the light is being sent to the AF sensor. If you have a mirror (Ricoh has the patents?) where you can switch between 100%, 66%, 50%, ... you can a) have a great, bright MF viewfinder and b) have an AF system that works in really low light situations... if necessary all the light is simply redirected to the PDAF system. Cameras with PDAF sensors on the sensor can't compete with that, because they need to squeeze much smaller PDAF sensors next to the image sensors. They aren't as sensitive. I truly hope this is what Pentax will add to their DSLRs, both APS-C and FF. That plus better video functionality and I'm sold, mirrorless be damned.

07-13-2015, 11:25 AM	#97
jonby Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 161	Originally posted by kadajawi Especially if Pentax manages to implement a mirror that only redirects light to the AF sensors when you are actually focusing. That way we'd get a really bright and big FF viewfinder, just like in the old days from before AF. Yes that would be great - at last a focusing screen which you can actually focus with. Do you think this is likely though? If it could be done then I guess one issue would be that the viewfinder would go dimmer while autofocusing, which would no doubt bother some people (not me).

07-13-2015, 12:05 PM	#98
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by jonby Yes that would be great - at last a focusing screen which you can actually focus with. Do you think this is likely though? If it could be done then I guess one issue would be that the viewfinder would go dimmer while autofocusing, which would no doubt bother some people (not me). You can install a focusing screen which you can actually focus with, but it will be too dim and small in most situations. I had it in my previous Pentax. Without the dimming mirror it's a bit pointless, at least for my eyes. I wouldn't mind about the dimming viewfinder, and for those who are bothered by it there could be a setting to have it behave like usual.

07-13-2015, 02:38 PM	#99
Cynog Ap Brychan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Gloucester Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	I have no problems manually focusing legacy glass on my Nikon Df and D810, so I do not foresee any problems with a Pentax full-frame camera.

07-13-2015, 10:12 PM	#100
KX5 Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 72	Originally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan I have no problems manually focusing legacy glass on my Nikon Df and D810, so I do not foresee any problems with a Pentax full-frame camera. The green dot is not sufficent when you make street photography or moving subject. Telemetric system and EVF system are the best for the moment for manual focus. Digital SLR has a limitation about that. We could seriously imagine a solution including the same digital back system of Hasselblad. You would give to your old film bodies a second life!

07-13-2015, 11:44 PM	#101
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by KX5 The green dot is not sufficent when you make street photography or moving subject. Telemetric system and EVF system are the best for the moment for manual focus. Digital SLR has a limitation about that. We could seriously imagine a solution including the same digital back system of Hasselblad. You would give to your old film bodies a second life! A digital back would stick out a lot (look at the marking of the sensor position in your DSLR... it's quite far inside the body, the part from there until the rear is necessary... it would be a rather ungainly and unbalanced camera), it would be camera specific (meaning that only the most popular bodies could be covered), and it would be produced in very small numbers --> high prices... new cameras make more sense.

07-14-2015, 04:00 AM	#102
Cynog Ap Brychan Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Gloucester Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	Originally posted by KX5 The green dot is not sufficent when you make street photography or moving subject. Telemetric system and EVF system are the best for the moment for manual focus. Digital SLR has a limitation about that. We could seriously imagine a solution including the same digital back system of Hasselblad. You would give to your old film bodies a second life! I don't use the green dot: my eyes tell me when the subject is in focus, and this works with my very active granddaughter. I don't find EVF any quicker or easier (rather the opposite, but maybe that's me). But amen to something that turns an old film camera into a digital. I have dozens of lovely film cameras, both 35 mm and medium format.

07-14-2015, 05:32 AM	#103
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	The problem with converting film to digital is that film is a very thin thing, and behind that the camera has essentially ended. In a digital camera however the sensor is much thicker. Then comes the SR mechanism if present, which is also thicker. Maybe a motherboard, where else would you put it? And then the display, though you may drop it. But in any case, it is going to be too thick to fit into a film camera. So they need to create a new back. But it ruins the design, and every model needs a different back. So... it would be nice, but technically it isn't feasible. Certainly it isn't worth the investment, people would want it to be cheaper than a stand alone camera.

07-21-2015, 02:58 PM	#104
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	I recently switched back to Pentax after a short stint with the Canon 6D. Long story short, the IQ from Canon and their L lenses are superb. But it just was not fun lugging that kit around. I do not get paid to do this, so for me, it was not worth it. Also, the 6D, while it's IQ was excellent, its AF was pretty poor. If I wanted to upgrade to a 5D3 for better AF, that would mean a slight loss in IQ and over $1000 more. Shallower DOF was nice, and noticeable, but I got over that aspect of it. The K-3 was the body I was waiting for...markedly better AF than the K-5 and not much bigger. The difference in size between my K-3ii +77mm vs the 6D + 135mm L is striking.

07-21-2015, 05:58 PM	#105
hjoseph7 Site Supporter Join Date: May 2014 Location: Minnesota Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,047	It's not only the camera, the Canikon lenses are also HUGE. I still have a Canon 30D which is one of the smallest ASP-C DSLR cameras Canon has ever built and it's huge sitting next to my K-5II. Put a lens on it and it's like comparing a Gorilla to a Chimpanzee !