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03-29-2015, 01:00 PM - 1 Like   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Will the a7r autofocus my FA Limiteds? Will it properly stabilize my K-series primes? Will it allow me to see the actual view my lenses see?

Will it do anything without an adapter?

At $2,399 for the camera plus $175 +/- for the adapter = $2,575 I might as well just get the $2,799 K-FF. That works out to $225 for a real viewfinder and good Pentax DNA.
it'll probably have an ovf, which makes it a non-starter for many people, because ovf displays are useless for judging exposure and doing critical manual focusing work.

used a7r's at b&h, are starting at $1350, and they will be much cheaper by the time that pentax actually has a ff camera for sale... you want to pay ~$1,800+ more for the same pq? just to be able to mount native pentax glass? ouch.

buying a proprietary mount camera like a pentax limits your glass selection severely... there are literally hundreds of lenses for sale at b&h, that will mount to the a7r, that you'll never see with a pentax.

it's all a big trade-off, but pentax is at a critical juncture with this ff camera, it's going to be real interesting to see how it all plays out.

---------- Post added 03-29-2015 at 01:02 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ACG Quote
May I wish you well on your journey whatever camera you choose.
the way that i look at it... we can lead a horse to water, but we can't make it drink

03-29-2015, 01:14 PM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by mikeodial Quote
Now that the FF is coming for many of us its places a couple of decisions.


  1. To go Full Frame or remain where we are with APSC or whatever combination of gear we currently have or
  2. Review some of the alternatives out there, Nikon/Canon/Sony et al


For myself, I am heavily invested in Pentax glass, but if there was a better way to leverage it, I could move to another body if there was enough benefit it doing so. If the new FF is close to the Nikon D810 in price, I would hope the performance and features will also be in that class.
My main problems are learning more about lighting, how to see lighting and shadows and what kind of lighting will make for the best image....and sourcing good material that will make for good photographs. Both of those will not be helped by switching to a FF camera.

Once I wear out my brand new K3, and if I have spare change laying around... after the FF has been released to the public for about a year then I can jump on it then.
03-29-2015, 02:37 PM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Will the a7r autofocus my FA Limiteds? Will it properly stabilize my K-series primes? Will it allow me to see the actual view my lenses see?

Will it do anything without an adapter?

At $2,399 for the camera plus $175 +/- for the adapter = $2,575 I might as well just get the $2,799 K-FF. That works out to $225 for a real viewfinder and good Pentax DNA.
I bought an A7R a few months after they came out for $1750 or something. Your 2575 for an A7R and adapter is an overestimate of many hundreds of dollars.
03-29-2015, 03:37 PM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I bought an A7R a few months after they came out for $1750 or something. Your 2575 for an A7R and adapter is an overestimate of many hundreds of dollars.
I just used the B&H 'On Sale' prices posted today. I suppose I could buy something used or from a grey market dealer - or are we comparing an 'end-of-life' camera body price to a different camera at 'Early Adopter' prices again?.

Everything is a compromise. An EVF is a prohibitive, negative limitation anyway, and none of the other benefits described interests me (especially using adapters to manual-focus AF lenses), so price doesn't matter.

Steve - 5-axis IBIS? - sure, that's interesting. But a7s is 12mp and even more expensive, so not comparable.

I swear, question a Sony devotee even here and the response is predictably patronizing, if politely so. Poor benighted me.

From my perspective an EVF is a deal breaker anayway, so price matters not,


Last edited by monochrome; 03-29-2015 at 03:53 PM.
03-29-2015, 04:08 PM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
The FF will be in the same price class as the D810, and it will likely be using the same sensor. So I don't see why it wouldn't have the same, or better, performance and features.
I'm thinking more D750 territory (low to mid $2000's). The D810 is low to mid $3000's.

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03-29-2015, 04:49 PM   #21
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There are a huge number of alternatives to a full-frame system, from a compact camera on up to a medium-format one, or a sketchbook and set of watercolours. In fact, considering the whole cost of the enterprise, the real competitors might well be a new kitchen or car, or a trip around the world with a Pentax K3 and a DA 18-135mm.

For example, a Fuji XT1 and 23mm lens + Sigma Merrill wide-angle compact + Pentax K3 and DA 16-85mm and DA 300mm would probably cover my photography much more fully than "FF". The Fuji for street, the Sigma for landscape and architecture, the Pentax for travel and critters. Why put all the eggs in one basket when you don't have to? In fact, you can cherrypick the best from different systems. Lugging an FF around for street photography or on a foreign holiday sounds a nightmare, I think it's helpful to look more widely at things than at the same four or five cameras which are always mentioned in these discussions - D810, 5D Mk x, Sony A7x, etc. Each one is limited in some way or another, and if the maker isn't Canon or Nikon, lens availability is an almost automatic limiter, at least native, fully AF lens availability. There are some cameras or combinations out there - the Ricoh GR is another example - which strike me as very hard to beat if their use is confined to what they are best at. Sometimes, "FF" is only an answer if you've already framed the question to give you the answer you want.

If someone is a professional with specific needs, then an FF may be by far the best choice. But for anyone who isn't, well, there are a lot of choices out there besides FF. The big camera companies would like you to think that it's FF or bust, or at the least an inferiority complex, but that's just marketing talk. Would I like an FF? Yes. Would I use it all that much? No, not really. Quite a lot of my photography is better done with smaller, more nimble equipment. I can't be the only person in this situation.
03-29-2015, 06:06 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I just used the B&H 'On Sale' prices posted today. I suppose I could buy something used or from a grey market dealer - or are we comparing an 'end-of-life' camera body price to a different camera at 'Early Adopter' prices again?.

Everything is a compromise. An EVF is a prohibitive, negative limitation anyway, and none of the other benefits described interests me (especially using adapters to manual-focus AF lenses), so price doesn't matter.
Yup, if you used Amazon you'd have been at $20XX. Abe's has a grey market version that's $1250 or something.

FWIW, feel free to compare only new cameras at only new prices, but I think savvy consumers compare prices at an instant in time, when making a purchase decision.

I'm not a total convert to EVF. But when they came out, I didn't want them. When the Sony A7's came out, I found that EVF's were finally more useful than OVF's.
03-29-2015, 07:10 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote

The whole matter of upgrade path is an invention of marketing for the most part.

Steve
BINGO!

I've always found it interesting that there are some who will leap on the very latest "bandwagon" when it comes along, perceiving (often erroneously) that the "latest and greatest" is ALWAYS "better".

Unfortunately, to feed the "need" the marketers have now created, the result is all too often what I've come to call "feature creep". That's when the new stuff sports more and more "features" that look absolutely fantastic in the manufacturers slick advertising, but that only a handful of us (if that!) will ever actually use in practice. To the contrary, FAR too many of these new "features" just get in the way, making what was once a fairly straightforward art and science of photography into a highly complex (spelled "confusing") endeavor.

Also, when it comes to modern electronics (as what most DSLRs contain these days)...in order for the manufacturers to fulfill the lofty expectations created by their marketers, these manufacturers are increasingly forced to turn the first thousand or so recipients of their "latest and greatest" brainchildren into unwitting "Beta testers" (remember the "mirror flop" issue with the K3?) until they can (finally!) work out all the problems associated with their ever-more complex offerings.

So, to all of this marketing hype, I say "NO THANKS"! What I currently have (and use) works quite well and it MORE than meets my (and I suspect the vast majority of most other people's) photo needs.

Indeed, as Leonardo Da Vinci once said (and as I routinely quote in my signature line below) "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication".

Keith

03-29-2015, 07:17 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
I'm thinking more D750 territory (low to mid $2000's). The D810 is low to mid $3000's.
That would be a major disappointment. For the first time I hope you don't know something.

D810 seems to be permanently 'on sale' for $2,999 at B&H. I suppose I imagine Petnax would price $100 or $200 below that street price. If it's a D750 competitor by sensor and features the professional grade lenses don't make any sense at all.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-29-2015 at 08:13 PM.
03-29-2015, 07:40 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
ovf displays are useless for judging exposure and doing critical manual focusing work
I guess it takes a special level of skill and experience.


Steve

(...give me a break...)
03-29-2015, 07:42 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
the way that i look at it... we can lead a horse to water, but we can't make it drink
Is that the plural of royalty or is there some sort of conspiracy afoot?


Steve

Last edited by stevebrot; 03-29-2015 at 07:57 PM.
03-29-2015, 07:51 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
I bought an A7R a few months after they came out for $1750 or something. Your 2575 for an A7R and adapter is an overestimate of many hundreds of dollars.
You mean one like this?

Sony a7R Alpha Mirrorless Digital Camera ILCE7R/B Sony a7R at B&H Photo

($2298.00 USD, Body Only)

Mated to something like this?

Voigtlander Adapter for Pentax K Lens to Sony E Mount BD222S B&H

($179.00 USD)

Yep, Monochrome did over-estimate by about $100. Of course, if you want an adapter that will actually do something, the price might be a little bit more:

Novoflex Adapter for Pentax K Lens to Sony NEX Camera NEX/PENT

($242.99 USD)

The revised total would be about $2540 USD with a decent adapter.


Steve

(Gray market at Abe's of New Jersey...oops...Abe's of Maine + a guaranteed-to-light-leak adapter from eBay might be a bit less...)

Last edited by stevebrot; 03-29-2015 at 08:00 PM.
03-29-2015, 09:32 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
You mean one like this?

Sony a7R Alpha Mirrorless Digital Camera ILCE7R/B Sony a7R at B&H Photo

($2298.00 USD, Body Only)
Yup, that's the one with the grip that wasn't mentioned, and the case that wasn't mentioned.

Try this: Amazon.com : Sony a7R Full-Frame Interchangeable Digital Lens Camera - Body Only : Compact System Digital Cameras : Camera & Photo

For 2098.


QuoteQuote:
Yep, Monochrome did over-estimate by about $100. Of course, if you want an adapter that will actually do something, the price might be a little bit more:
$300.

FYI I have two novoflex adapters, each $250 or whatever. The best adapter I own was actually ~$100. So IMO it's an overestimate by ~$450. In other words, many hundreds of dollars.


That's ignoring the ~$700 you could save grey market, an option which I've never seen for Pentax cameras.
03-30-2015, 03:26 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Yup, that's the one with the grip that wasn't mentioned, and the case that wasn't mentioned.

Try this: Amazon.com : Sony a7R Full-Frame Interchangeable Digital Lens Camera - Body Only : Compact System Digital Cameras : Camera & Photo

For 2098.


$300.

FYI I have two novoflex adapters, each $250 or whatever. The best adapter I own was actually ~$100. So IMO it's an overestimate by ~$450. In other words, many hundreds of dollars.


That's ignoring the ~$700 you could save grey market, an option which I've never seen for Pentax cameras.
I wonder why.

Your link says $2,298 on my computer - exact same price as B&H. I won't argue prices on gray market vs. local market or end-of-life versus release price or your idea of your best converter. I can get one NIB for $700 on Craigslist - bet I know where that came from!

It's $2,547 with Novoflex versus what we think might be $2,799 for a full-function, native mount camera.

$250 more.

Otherwise it's just Sony dogma and it gets so, so tiresome.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-30-2015 at 03:34 AM.
03-30-2015, 04:23 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I wonder why.

Your link says $2,298 on my computer - exact same price as B&H. I won't argue prices on gray market vs. local market or end-of-life versus release price or your idea of your best converter. I can get one NIB for $700 on Craigslist - bet I know where that came from!

It's $2,547 with Novoflex versus what we think might be $2,799 for a full-function, native mount camera.

$250 more.

Otherwise it's just Sony dogma and it gets so, so tiresome.
I think the general point is that Sony have introduced some very aggressive pricing - that is certainly true over here. The result is sure to be some leaching of custom from Canonikon and, if Sony's posture continues, from any Pentax FF. There is also the leaching of grey market outfits. Where I am, they offer very low prices compared to a dealer, together with a three-year guarantee based on the item being shipped back to Hong Kong and serviced there. They take care of the shipping. At your own risk, of course, and likely not for me. However, this all adds up to more juice flowing away from the conventional channels. For a customer, it likely means a saving of several hundred bucks on each major purchase. In straightened times, that makes a difference. Whether someone likes a Sony camera or not isn't the issue. Some folks do and some folks don't - fine. But it must all be having an effect. Take the Sony A7R. What are folks really buying? I'd say they are really buying a sensor, the currently top-dog 36 mpx sensor for a fraction of the price that going conventional would cost. The camera built around it may or may not be crap, but if that is all workable then the buyer has got what they wanted in that sensor. A good purchase, so to speak. The Sigma Merrill compacts have found an audience on exactly this basis: forget the camera, just look at the sensor. My Flickr feed is full of people who appear to have done just this plus a few choice old MF lenses, and they aren't complaining. It's not really for me, but one can easily see where this is all going. I'd say it must be a serious headache for the old incumbents. The next stop, or so I have read, is Canon workshops for landscapers where the students have Canon lenses, but attached to a Sony A7 camera.

Last edited by mecrox; 03-30-2015 at 04:30 AM.
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