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04-11-2015, 10:03 AM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
It 'used to be' that Pentax lenses were cheaper than the competition and the cameras were slightly more expensive. Now it seems like the lenses are expensive and the cameras are cheaper.

Fine by me of course.
I think the Pentax FF, lenses and camera are going to be pretty expensive. I'm still hoping they surprise me, but the DFA 70-200 and DFA 150-450 are the most expensive lenses currently in production, except for the 560. The 70-200 is more than either the Canon or Nikon lenses of the same focal length. For guys like me that don't have an FF body, that is a sales killer. And for anyone who's doing the math for every lens they need in an FF system, Pentax could be on the losing end of that comparison for a while. Unless they pull a rabbit out of a hat and are on par with performance, they may only be selling to people who already have a lot of Pentax glass.

04-11-2015, 01:01 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I think the Pentax FF, lenses and camera are going to be pretty expensive. I'm still hoping they surprise me, but the DFA 70-200 and DFA 150-450 are the most expensive lenses currently in production, except for the 560. The 70-200 is more than either the Canon or Nikon lenses of the same focal length. For guys like me that don't have an FF body, that is a sales killer. And for anyone who's doing the math for every lens they need in an FF system, Pentax could be on the losing end of that comparison for a while. Unless they pull a rabbit out of a hat and are on par with performance, they may only be selling to people who already have a lot of Pentax glass.
From what I've seen a year or two ago, the lenses were more expensive than the competition but the camera was cheaper... making it less expensive to buy into the system but more expensive overall.

If I want a 150-450 it might matter to me, but that lens would have to test extraordinarily well for me to want it. For the 70-200, I already have two options, so... again, it would have to test very well, well beyond the competition, and I'm not sure that standard is possible.

So the lens prices are unlikely to affect me. The camera price is key for me.
04-11-2015, 01:19 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote

So the lens prices are unlikely to affect me. The camera price is key for me.
I go for the same road.. lenses we have options, for example i currently use the Tamron 70-200 with my K3, and so far is a great lens, sharp and quick for what i do, eventually i will love to upgrade it to the Pentax 70-200 but is not a priority.. my priority will be the camera and then, upgrade some lenses if i think is nessesary.. but my key price as you said is the camera it self, with the glass i can deal later.
04-11-2015, 01:40 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
I go for the same road.. lenses we have options, for example i currently use the Tamron 70-200 with my K3, and so far is a great lens, sharp and quick for what i do, eventually i will love to upgrade it to the Pentax 70-200 but is not a priority.. my priority will be the camera and then, upgrade some lenses if i think is nessesary.. but my key price as you said is the camera it self, with the glass i can deal later.
Glass before camera house. If you dont have the best glass, you dont get to use the camera to its full potential. The two next cameras to come, will need the best glass, or its just a waste of money.

04-11-2015, 01:45 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Glass before camera house. If you dont have the best glass, you dont get to use the camera to its full potential. The two next cameras to come, will need the best glass, or its just a waste of money.
Just like Canon and Nikon, but then, that's what everyone says they want.

I once figured what it would cost to get top performance with what I needed in Nikon of Canon FF and it came to around 10 grand. Pentax is not going to be cheaper.
04-11-2015, 01:48 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Just like Canon and Nikon, but then, that's what everyone says they want.

I once figured what it would cost to get top performance with what I needed in Nikon of Canon FF and it came to around 10 grand. Pentax is not going toe cheaper.
Of course, quality doesn't come cheap. In many areas, Pentax is way cheaper then others. But when it comes to the new FF, that is aimed at pros, and the new glass, it will be closer to Nikon and Canon then you are used too. But so far, my experience tell me, that the new 70-200 will be just as good, maybe a notch better, then the VR II from Nikon.
04-11-2015, 02:02 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Glass before camera house. If you dont have the best glass, you dont get to use the camera to its full potential. The two next cameras to come, will need the best glass, or its just a waste of money.
^ Born of myth**. You absolutely don't need the 'best glass' to take advantage of FF, or more MP, or both. 'good glass' is all that's required.

Here's another way to look at it - is it a waste of money to buy a K3 if you don't have only $2000 Zeiss primes? No, it's not - the K3 and the K5 both get better results than say the K10D or K20D using any lens - not just 'the best lenses.'

K5 has the pixel density of a 36MP FF, K3 of a 54MP FF.


** myth, and what was true in the film days - when there were no sensors, and all that really mattered to IQ was the glass.

Last edited by jsherman999; 04-11-2015 at 02:16 PM.
04-11-2015, 02:23 PM   #98
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There is a difference between Ziess primes and what I'm talking about. But if you prefer to use the FF with a crappy kitlens, go ahead. I ment, that its no point buying the best camera house if you dont have the glass to use on it. That is not a myth.

04-11-2015, 02:37 PM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
There is a difference between Ziess primes and what I'm talking about. But if you prefer to use the FF with a crappy kitlens, go ahead. I ment, that its no point buying the best camera house if you dont have the glass to use on it. That is not a myth.
Hi all,

If you end up buying a 36mp ff camera (or even 48mp given the rumours of the new Sony a7r), you definitely will want the best possible glass to get the best from the sensor. Otherwise, buy the 24mp alternative.
The Sony Zeiss fe 16-35 and 24-70 (in particular) are a big disappointment and do not match the quality of the sensor. Indeed, I think the use of the name Zeiss flatters them.
I think that is why so many of the Sony users have a preference for legacy or third party glasss.
From my collection of k and m series Pentax glass, I believe that the k28 f3.5, k35 f3.5, k55 f1.8 and k85 f1.8 are of outstanding quality producing images that are sharp to the corners and beautifully rendered with deep vibrant colours that do the wonderful sensor justice.
04-11-2015, 02:50 PM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
There is a difference between Ziess primes and what I'm talking about. But if you prefer to use the FF with a crappy kitlens, go ahead.
I wasn't talking about the kit lens, more like inexpensive but good primes and zooms, but in some cases even a kit lens will resolve more on more MP or larger format (or both) than a super-good lens on lesser MP or smaller format.

QuoteQuote:
I ment, that its no point buying the best camera house if you dont have the glass to use on it. That is not a myth.
What is a myth is that you need 'the best glass', or you won't see any benefit to more MP, or FF, or both. This gets repeated all the time because it sounds 'truthy' and it has it's genesis in the film days, where it was a bit more true.

In the example given here, the Tamron 70-200 2.8 vs, the upcoming Pentax 70-200 2.8 (or existing Nikon/Canon 70-200 2.8 VR II,) the inference people make is that you should dump the Tamron and get the Pentax/Nikon 70-200 in order to 'take advantage' of the new camera - that it's a waste if you don't spend $2K on a zoom - and that's the myth. The Tamron will perform better on the new camera than it did on the old, that's almost guaranteed, unless you have an out-of-spec Tamron.

You can get the 3x as expensive Pentax/Nion 70-200 2.8 if you want, and you may see a slight improvement over the Tamron - but those $$ lenses are not required to see an improvement over the previous camera. If you're interested in 'maximizing' the difference, sure, get the $2K zoom, but that absolute maximization of MTFwill probably bring more diminishing returns than you'd be comfortable with, for that price. If the Pentax focused faster, more accurately, or had a better MFD, something like that, that might be a better reason to get it vs. any resolution difference. (It's not likeley to have better bokeh - that Tamron is a bokeh monster.)

More and more I think spending uber-$$$ on glass is the waste of money, not the other way around. Get good glass (not the 'best',) get the best sensor you're comfortable buying, then you'll see the best IQ returns at any given time.
04-11-2015, 02:53 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
There is a difference between Ziess primes and what I'm talking about. But if you prefer to use the FF with a crappy kitlens, go ahead. I ment, that its no point buying the best camera house if you dont have the glass to use on it. That is not a myth.
What you seem to be implying in several posts is that the forthcoming Pentax FF equipment will be so expensive that almost no existing Pentax users will be able to afford any of it. I'm not in the market for a Pentax FF anyway, but I mean good luck with that one. It would be richly ironic if the launch of a very, very top-drawer FF system had the unintended consequence of nixing Pentax's APS-C base as many users decide that since they will never be able to afford the Pentax upgrade path they would be better off moving to brands with a broader range of FF options
04-11-2015, 02:54 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
The Tamron will perform better on the new camera than it did on the old, that's almost guaranteed, unless you have an out-of-spec Tamron.
Maybe, but it won't perform not even close to the new Pentax 70-200! I think you missed my point.
04-11-2015, 03:11 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by ACG Quote
Hi all,

If you end up buying a 36mp ff camera (or even 48mp given the rumours of the new Sony a7r), you definitely will want the best possible glass to get the best from the sensor. Otherwise, buy the 24mp alternative.
No, no, no.

QuoteQuote:
I believe that the k28 f3.5, k35 f3.5, k55 f1.8 and k85 f1.8 are of outstanding quality producing images that are sharp to the corners and beautifully rendered with deep vibrant colours that do the wonderful sensor justice.
Yes, yes, yes.

Now - everyone knows that the K28 f/3.5, K35 f/3.5, K55 f/1.8 and K85 f/1.8 are not 'the best possible glass' - so how could they be good on 36MP? (this is where 'the best possible glass' myth does damage - unless pointed out, few might realize the lenses you mentioned could fall into that category and be very nice on 36MP FF. And they would, I've owned them all.)

---------- Post added 04-11-15 at 04:22 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Maybe, but it won't perform not even close to the new Pentax 70-200! I think you missed my point.
I think you missed mine.

It will likely perform close to the Pentax 70-200. You'll probably be hard-pressed to see any difference in output. Here's a snippet from dpreview's review:

QuoteOriginally posted by dpreview:
...The Tamron maintains its excellent performance on full frame; it benefits from the usual advantage of higher perceived sharpness on the larger format, and chromatic aberration, falloff and distortion are all within acceptable limits. It's at least a match for the Canon 70-200mm F2.8 L IS USM in terms of sharpness across the range, and indeed is noticeably sharper wide open at 70mm.
I guess the Pentax 70-200 could blow the Canon/Nikon 70-200's out of thewater... but I wouldn't count on it. It's likely to perform on-par with them.

Last edited by jsherman999; 04-11-2015 at 03:30 PM.
04-11-2015, 05:34 PM   #104
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For once jay and I think the same thing. I better see if the Leafs might win the Cup this year.
04-11-2015, 06:08 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Of course, quality doesn't come cheap. In many areas, Pentax is way cheaper then others. But when it comes to the new FF, that is aimed at pros, and the new glass, it will be closer to Nikon and Canon then you are used too. But so far, my experience tell me, that the new 70-200 will be just as good, maybe a notch better, then the VR II from Nikon.
Im sure that the new cameras will take fully advantage of the new glass, and perhaps the ideal is to get both, and eventually it could happen.. but sadly not everybody have the cash to buy both.. so, we can get the new glass and use it with the K3, but still wont take fully advantage of the glass.. or we can get the camera first, use most of the functions, take advantage of the sensor, and other features and still use it with the glass that we have, that in my case it performs good for the kind of shooting that I do.

For example,when i got the Tamron I checked a lot of reviews about this lens and to be honest most ( if not all ) the reviews showed a pretty close performance with the Canikons versions.. most of the time the low points were build quality, and some Canons pointed AF speed, that in the case of Pentax the AF is much faster for this particular lens than, how it performns with Canon.

Of course i will love to have the new glass ( who doesnt? ), but i'll have to deside.. glass, or FF sensor?... In my case i pick sensor first, then update glass.
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