The Full Frame: What are the alternatives?

Kunzite · 03-30-2015, 05:37 AM

Sony? No thanks, I would rather have the mount solidly fixed to the camera.

**monochrome** · 03-30-2015, 06:12 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

It's not really for me, but one can easily see where this is all going. I'd say it must be a serious headache for the old incumbents

I understand the subject of the post is what alternative can there be if the FF is too expensive for a current Pentax user to buy - but that's just an extension of the alternative when there (wasn't) a Pentax FF at all.

I have no argument against Sony or gray market or really any choice anyone else makes for whatever their reasons. I only object to the dogmatic assertion that any choice other than the one they made is wrong, or the loser user is benighted.

MILC and Sony devotion borders on religious certainty. Their true believers are right and everyone else isn't.

I just want a passive viewfinder and a native mount that offers all the features and technology of all my lenses, and those I might buy later. I don't care that the same sensor is available in a hamstrung camera that can mount all the other brand lenses too, by buying another adapter.

Clavius · 03-30-2015, 06:22 AM

Back to the topic... What if the Pentax camera really is something like the D810, with similar specs and similar price? (Sans the D810 blazing AF performance.) The D810 has been around for some time now, if anybody really needed a D810... then I imagine they would have bought a D810 by now.

That's why I still hope Pentax will surprise us with something that differs from what CaNiSo already has to offer. I hope the alternative which the OP spoke about comes from Pentax.

kooks · 03-30-2015, 12:55 PM

Im just wondering.. i saw many polls here and other forums, and at all this polls not that many users are willing to pay the $3000+ that cost a D810 body, so i wonder.. we all know that Pentax total market share is small, we all know that the FF market is small too, and if we add that most (not official) polls show that just an small share of the people that want a FF will pay a D810 price.. will be that smart for Pentax to release a camera like this?? it just doesnt make that much sense to me, of course we all love to have the greates camera at the greates performance, and that cost $$$$.. but, is the average ACTUAL Pentax user need it?, we all want it.. but do we need it?? in my case Im happy with the K3 performance, ofcourse it can be better, but im happy most of the time. What i like about the FF is the low light performance and dof, I wil love perhaps some imporovement in AF speed and even better IQ (wich im happy at this time) so... is that enough to pay 3 times more than the K3?? mmmm ... A D810 body is more like a "pro" body, and by this time most pro FF shooters already have a FF camera.. so, what is really the market for this new FF camera?? .. i honestly don think that anybody will switch to pentax from Canikon with a price like that because they wont see something new that they dont already have.. will the existing Pentax users buy it? mmmm according to the polls around not that many. So, will Ricoh invest in a body that wont move "that" much??, will have to see, but seems kind of strange to me.

Im more likely to think that they will release a great camera, with great IQ, and features improvements over the K3, a camerera that sells good, and some people that use other brands (APS-C users) will look like an option to switch to Pentax...

But will have to wait and see, at this time.. we dont know nothing.. i like to think that Ricoh will break the market and have a great camera at a great price to grow their market and sell their new lenses.. something like they did with 645Z and the other MF cameras.

but.. thats just me...

ACG · 03-30-2015, 01:24 PM

When the d800 and d800e were announced they were described as game changers "medium format quality in a DSLR body". So when the a7r was announced it was also a game changer " a medium format quality in a mft body!!"
I totally agree with mecrox. The primary reason for the upgrade to the a7r was for the sensor. Trust me, until you have used the a7r or d800e you won't have a comprehension as to how good the sensor is!! Even if I am taking photographs that are unlikely to be printed let alone printed at a2, I still reach for the a7r because of the dynamic range, ability to crop massively and because it doesn't weigh a tonne.
The lenses mount securely with the novoflex adapter.
I prefer the evf to the ovf. Live view shows the depth of view, the focus mag allows for precise manual focusing and there are the zebra and focus peaking functions.
I also have a Fuji x100 and despite having the choice of ovf (with overlayed info and histogram) , I still prefer the evf.
The a7r, in my humble opinion gets more out of the wonderful old k and m series lenses compared with anything that has gone before.

kooks · 03-30-2015, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Mr Bassie

Adam said above that he expects the FF to be closer to $2000 than $3000, so much of this discussion is likely moot.

I think the same.. at least at this release.. just because at this time they need to sell the camera and have it "spread" around the market.. IMO eventually they will need to release a top FF with all the high tech possible, but not until they have a FF users base that will buy it, at this time, i dont know if Pentax have it, or if is the price of a camera that market needs to fit most of their needs.

Clavius · 03-31-2015, 12:51 AM

Originally posted by kooks

Im just wondering.. i saw many polls here and other forums, and at all this polls not that many users are willing to pay the $3000+ that cost a D810 body, so i wonder.. we all know that Pentax total market share is small, we all know that the FF market is small too, and if we add that most (not official) polls show that just an small share of the people that want a FF will pay a D810 price.. will be that smart for Pentax to release a camera like this?? it just doesnt make that much sense to me, of course we all love to have the greates camera at the greates performance, and that cost $$$$.. but, is the average ACTUAL Pentax user need it?, we all want it.. but do we need it?? in my case Im happy with the K3 performance, ofcourse it can be better, but im happy most of the time. What i like about the FF is the low light performance and dof, I wil love perhaps some imporovement in AF speed and even better IQ (wich im happy at this time) so... is that enough to pay 3 times more than the K3?? mmmm ... A D810 body is more like a "pro" body, and by this time most pro FF shooters already have a FF camera.. so, what is really the market for this new FF camera?? .. i honestly don think that anybody will switch to pentax from Canikon with a price like that because they wont see something new that they dont already have.. will the existing Pentax users buy it? mmmm according to the polls around not that many. So, will Ricoh invest in a body that wont move "that" much??, will have to see, but seems kind of strange to me.

Im more likely to think that they will release a great camera, with great IQ, and features improvements over the K3, a camerera that sells good, and some people that use other brands (APS-C users) will look like an option to switch to Pentax...

But will have to wait and see, at this time.. we dont know nothing.. i like to think that Ricoh will break the market and have a great camera at a great price to grow their market and sell their new lenses.. something like they did with 645Z and the other MF cameras.

but.. thats just me...

I think that's exactly the reason why there was only a 3D printed mockup on their latest presentation. According to the whishfull thinking here on PF, production of the FF camera was already underway. Then why not show one of those? Even a half arsed pre production prototype would still be better then a 3D printed model. They might just still be testing the waters with the model to see the responses. Testing the waters to find out what direction to take.

rawr · 03-31-2015, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

Testing the waters to find out what direction to take.

Let's hope the Pentax design team never visit these forums for inspiration. They will be so confused by the plethora of opinions offered here that it will throw the development of the camera back another decade.

Kunzite · 03-31-2015, 03:21 AM

Don't worry; the development of the camera started in 2012. They just don't want to tell us right now anything else but these 3 things:
- they are developing a FF DSLR
- it will be announced by the end of this year
- it will support APS-C lenses via an in-camera crop function
For this, a 3D-printed mock-up is more than adequate

FTR, a camera should take roughly 3 years to make (if it's a ground-up design). The idea that Ricoh Imaging is still trying to "find out what direction to take" half a year before the announcement is pure fantasy.

Clavius · 03-31-2015, 03:29 AM

Originally posted by rawr

Let's hope the Pentax design team never visit these forums for inspiration. They will be so confused by the plethora of opinions offered here that it will throw the development of the camera back another decade.

LOL! Yes, I assumed that's why it took them so long in the first place. Kept going back to the drawing board. But still, it just doesn't make sense to show a 3D mockup in a glass box, instead of a production model in a glass box. It only makes sense if there are no produced models yet.

**Pål Jensen** · 03-31-2015, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

FTR, a camera should take roughly 3 years to make (if it's a ground-up design). The idea that Ricoh Imaging is still trying to "find out what direction to take" half a year before the announcement is pure fantasy.

True. The design must be more or less finalized. It is tremendous job getting a product ready for production. There are thousands of parts in such a camera. All subcontractors must get the datas in order to make the parts in time. If the camera is for October release whats left, if anything, is probably software tweaking and software feature implementation...

Pentax choose to show a mock-up just like they choose to show mock-ups of the new telephoto zooms a few months ago....

ElJamoquio · 03-31-2015, 07:56 AM

A7 is now $1200, US (not grey market) version.

Sony Alpha a7 Digital Camera, Full Frame 24MP With Basic Accessory Kit ILCE7/B A

normhead · 03-31-2015, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

A7 is now $1200, US (not grey market) version.

Sony Alpha a7 Digital Camera, Full Frame 24MP With Basic Accessory Kit ILCE7/B A

That's getting down to pocket change, except for the part where the Canadian dollar tanked.

**monochrome** · 03-31-2015, 08:31 AM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

A7 is now $1200, US (not grey market) version.

Sony Alpha a7 Digital Camera, Full Frame 24MP With Basic Accessory Kit ILCE7/B A

Just pointing out, that's the a7. B&H prices:

a7 = $1,198 - 12Mp
a7II = $1,698 - 24Mp
a7r = $2,298 - 36Mp
a7s = $2,498 - 12Mp w/ 4K video

It is not a competitor with the coming Pentax FF. An alternative, maybe, if having a FF sensor at a really low price is the objective and you don't mind manual focusing your lenses using a third-party adapter.

mikeodial · 03-31-2015, 10:22 AM

If you, like many of us, already invested in Pentax glass, then perhaps it's not a competitor. However, if you are willing to change, or a newbie to FF then it might be. I have an A6000 as a walkabout/everywhere camera, and the distance between this and the FF Sony is now only hundreds of dollars. That is assuming of course, Pentax wants to attract new customers to the brand.

BMW motorcycles had a similar problem many years ago, and brought in a whole new line of innovative sport bikes, which changed the demographics and range of their line significantly. (New younger customers rather those who had purchased their adventure line alone.)

I think Pentax would be wise to do the same. The old diehards (like me) who bought cameras in the 70s are a dying breed. (Hopefully not too soon, but from a marketing perspective, they need younger customers to sustain themselves).

03-30-2015, 06:12 AM	#32
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by mecrox It's not really for me, but one can easily see where this is all going. I'd say it must be a serious headache for the old incumbents I understand the subject of the post is what alternative can there be if the FF is too expensive for a current Pentax user to buy - but that's just an extension of the alternative when there (wasn't) a Pentax FF at all. I have no argument against Sony or gray market or really any choice anyone else makes for whatever their reasons. I only object to the dogmatic assertion that any choice other than the one they made is wrong, or the loser user is benighted. MILC and Sony devotion borders on religious certainty. Their true believers are right and everyone else isn't. I just want a passive viewfinder and a native mount that offers all the features and technology of all my lenses, and those I might buy later. I don't care that the same sensor is available in a hamstrung camera that can mount all the other brand lenses too, by buying another adapter. Last edited by monochrome; 03-30-2015 at 01:29 PM.

03-30-2015, 06:22 AM	#33
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Back to the topic... What if the Pentax camera really is something like the D810, with similar specs and similar price? (Sans the D810 blazing AF performance.) The D810 has been around for some time now, if anybody really needed a D810... then I imagine they would have bought a D810 by now. That's why I still hope Pentax will surprise us with something that differs from what CaNiSo already has to offer. I hope the alternative which the OP spoke about comes from Pentax. Last edited by Clavius; 03-30-2015 at 07:01 AM.

03-31-2015, 03:21 AM	#39
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Don't worry; the development of the camera started in 2012. They just don't want to tell us right now anything else but these 3 things: - they are developing a FF DSLR - it will be announced by the end of this year - it will support APS-C lenses via an in-camera crop function For this, a 3D-printed mock-up is more than adequate FTR, a camera should take roughly 3 years to make (if it's a ground-up design). The idea that Ricoh Imaging is still trying to "find out what direction to take" half a year before the announcement is pure fantasy. Last edited by Kunzite; 03-31-2015 at 03:26 AM.

03-31-2015, 08:31 AM	#44
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by ElJamoquio A7 is now $1200, US (not grey market) version. Sony Alpha a7 Digital Camera, Full Frame 24MP With Basic Accessory Kit ILCE7/B A Just pointing out, that's the a7. B&H prices: a7 = $1,198 - 12Mp a7II = $1,698 - 24Mp a7r = $2,298 - 36Mp a7s = $2,498 - 12Mp w/ 4K video It is not a *competitor* with the coming Pentax FF. An alternative, maybe, if having a FF sensor at a really low price is the objective and you don't mind manual focusing your lenses using a third-party adapter.

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03-30-2015, 05:37 AM	#31
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Sony? No thanks, I would rather have the mount solidly fixed to the camera.

03-30-2015, 12:55 PM	#34
kooks Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San José, Costa Rica Photos: Albums Posts: 794	Im just wondering.. i saw many polls here and other forums, and at all this polls not that many users are willing to pay the $3000+ that cost a D810 body, so i wonder.. we all know that Pentax total market share is small, we all know that the FF market is small too, and if we add that most (not official) polls show that just an small share of the people that want a FF will pay a D810 price.. will be that smart for Pentax to release a camera like this?? it just doesnt make that much sense to me, of course we all love to have the greates camera at the greates performance, and that cost $$$$.. but, is the average ACTUAL Pentax user need it?, we all want it.. but do we need it?? in my case Im happy with the K3 performance, ofcourse it can be better, but im happy most of the time. What i like about the FF is the low light performance and dof, I wil love perhaps some imporovement in AF speed and even better IQ (wich im happy at this time) so... is that enough to pay 3 times more than the K3?? mmmm ... A D810 body is more like a "pro" body, and by this time most pro FF shooters already have a FF camera.. so, what is really the market for this new FF camera?? .. i honestly don think that anybody will switch to pentax from Canikon with a price like that because they wont see something new that they dont already have.. will the existing Pentax users buy it? mmmm according to the polls around not that many. So, will Ricoh invest in a body that wont move "that" much??, will have to see, but seems kind of strange to me. Im more likely to think that they will release a great camera, with great IQ, and features improvements over the K3, a camerera that sells good, and some people that use other brands (APS-C users) will look like an option to switch to Pentax... But will have to wait and see, at this time.. we dont know nothing.. i like to think that Ricoh will break the market and have a great camera at a great price to grow their market and sell their new lenses.. something like they did with 645Z and the other MF cameras. but.. thats just me...

03-30-2015, 01:24 PM	#35
ACG Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 61	When the d800 and d800e were announced they were described as game changers "medium format quality in a DSLR body". So when the a7r was announced it was also a game changer " a medium format quality in a mft body!!" I totally agree with mecrox. The primary reason for the upgrade to the a7r was for the sensor. Trust me, until you have used the a7r or d800e you won't have a comprehension as to how good the sensor is!! Even if I am taking photographs that are unlikely to be printed let alone printed at a2, I still reach for the a7r because of the dynamic range, ability to crop massively and because it doesn't weigh a tonne. The lenses mount securely with the novoflex adapter. I prefer the evf to the ovf. Live view shows the depth of view, the focus mag allows for precise manual focusing and there are the zebra and focus peaking functions. I also have a Fuji x100 and despite having the choice of ovf (with overlayed info and histogram) , I still prefer the evf. The a7r, in my humble opinion gets more out of the wonderful old k and m series lenses compared with anything that has gone before.

03-30-2015, 05:19 PM	#36
kooks Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: San José, Costa Rica Photos: Albums Posts: 794	Originally posted by Mr Bassie Adam said above that he expects the FF to be closer to $2000 than $3000, so much of this discussion is likely moot. I think the same.. at least at this release.. just because at this time they need to sell the camera and have it "spread" around the market.. IMO eventually they will need to release a top FF with all the high tech possible, but not until they have a FF users base that will buy it, at this time, i dont know if Pentax have it, or if is the price of a camera that market needs to fit most of their needs.

03-31-2015, 12:51 AM	#37
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by kooks Im just wondering.. i saw many polls here and other forums, and at all this polls not that many users are willing to pay the $3000+ that cost a D810 body, so i wonder.. we all know that Pentax total market share is small, we all know that the FF market is small too, and if we add that most (not official) polls show that just an small share of the people that want a FF will pay a D810 price.. will be that smart for Pentax to release a camera like this?? it just doesnt make that much sense to me, of course we all love to have the greates camera at the greates performance, and that cost $$$$.. but, is the average ACTUAL Pentax user need it?, we all want it.. but do we need it?? in my case Im happy with the K3 performance, ofcourse it can be better, but im happy most of the time. What i like about the FF is the low light performance and dof, I wil love perhaps some imporovement in AF speed and even better IQ (wich im happy at this time) so... is that enough to pay 3 times more than the K3?? mmmm ... A D810 body is more like a "pro" body, and by this time most pro FF shooters already have a FF camera.. so, what is really the market for this new FF camera?? .. i honestly don think that anybody will switch to pentax from Canikon with a price like that because they wont see something new that they dont already have.. will the existing Pentax users buy it? mmmm according to the polls around not that many. So, will Ricoh invest in a body that wont move "that" much??, will have to see, but seems kind of strange to me. Im more likely to think that they will release a great camera, with great IQ, and features improvements over the K3, a camerera that sells good, and some people that use other brands (APS-C users) will look like an option to switch to Pentax... But will have to wait and see, at this time.. we dont know nothing.. i like to think that Ricoh will break the market and have a great camera at a great price to grow their market and sell their new lenses.. something like they did with 645Z and the other MF cameras. but.. thats just me... I think that's exactly the reason why there was only a 3D printed mockup on their latest presentation. According to the whishfull thinking here on PF, production of the FF camera was already underway. Then why not show one of those? Even a half arsed pre production prototype would still be better then a 3D printed model. They might just still be testing the waters with the model to see the responses. Testing the waters to find out what direction to take.

03-31-2015, 03:10 AM	#38
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by Clavius Testing the waters to find out what direction to take. Let's hope the Pentax design team never visit these forums for inspiration. They will be so confused by the plethora of opinions offered here that it will throw the development of the camera back another decade.

03-31-2015, 03:29 AM	#40
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by rawr Let's hope the Pentax design team never visit these forums for inspiration. They will be so confused by the plethora of opinions offered here that it will throw the development of the camera back another decade. LOL! Yes, I assumed that's why it took them so long in the first place. Kept going back to the drawing board. But still, it just doesn't make sense to show a 3D mockup in a glass box, instead of a production model in a glass box. It only makes sense if there are no produced models yet.

03-31-2015, 05:51 AM	#41
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Kunzite FTR, a camera should take roughly 3 years to make (if it's a ground-up design). The idea that Ricoh Imaging is still trying to "find out what direction to take" half a year before the announcement is pure fantasy. True. The design must be more or less finalized. It is tremendous job getting a product ready for production. There are thousands of parts in such a camera. All subcontractors must get the datas in order to make the parts in time. If the camera is for October release whats left, if anything, is probably software tweaking and software feature implementation... Pentax choose to show a mock-up just like they choose to show mock-ups of the new telephoto zooms a few months ago....

03-31-2015, 07:56 AM	#42
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	A7 is now $1200, US (not grey market) version. Sony Alpha a7 Digital Camera, Full Frame 24MP With Basic Accessory Kit ILCE7/B A

03-31-2015, 07:59 AM	#43
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by ElJamoquio A7 is now $1200, US (not grey market) version. Sony Alpha a7 Digital Camera, Full Frame 24MP With Basic Accessory Kit ILCE7/B A That's getting down to pocket change, except for the part where the Canadian dollar tanked.

03-31-2015, 10:22 AM	#45
mikeodial Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 370 Original Poster	If you, like many of us, already invested in Pentax glass, then perhaps it's not a competitor. However, if you are willing to change, or a newbie to FF then it might be. I have an A6000 as a walkabout/everywhere camera, and the distance between this and the FF Sony is now only hundreds of dollars. That is assuming of course, Pentax wants to attract new customers to the brand. BMW motorcycles had a similar problem many years ago, and brought in a whole new line of innovative sport bikes, which changed the demographics and range of their line significantly. (New younger customers rather those who had purchased their adventure line alone.) I think Pentax would be wise to do the same. The old diehards (like me) who bought cameras in the 70s are a dying breed. (Hopefully not too soon, but from a marketing perspective, they need younger customers to sustain themselves).