[jsherman999]

... Perhaps we could reach a compromise, that no format can be "the best" in every possible situation?

It wouldn't be a 'compromise', it would be a fact. I've never seen anyone on either side of the argument claim that one format is the 'best' for everyone's circumstance.

In general, for me (and probably for *most* (not all) current DSLR shooters,) FF holds more advantages than smaller formats and is very 'sweet spottish' in price compared to one-step up (medium format digital.) It also represents more of a real 'upgrade path' than MFD, as it shares the same mount as aps-c, something that's true for every FF manufacturer.

So in other words it's hard to beat, and we're lucky as K-mount shooters that we now at least have the option to take that route, which we didn't before.

[normhead]

I'd like to feel I could get the best shot I possibly can when capturing silence and stillness in old country churches. Isn't the feeling that I'm still hunting the best shot, and always will be, one of the whole draws in photography? Nothing is ever finished. When is a painting ever finished? Only when the artist stops painting it. From what I've seen something like a Nikon D810 and an appropriate WA lens will get me nearer to my goal than anything I've so far experienced on APS-C. Whether I could ever afford it, well who knows. But that sensor strikes me as clearly a step up with my purpose in mind. The notion that a sensor half as large is just as good me strikes as inherently implausible. In some circs yes it will be, because a larger format would be complete overkill, but not in all circumstances at all. Alas, though, I am not really waiting for a Pentax FF. Chances are a second-hand D800E or A7R will be affordable a long, long time before a Pentax equivalent is. I'll keep the K3, though, regardless of what pans out. It's too good to pass up for plenty of things.

Me, I'm still watching for a used 645D. I check every now and then.. I've got a couple of A-lenses. The IR images where the 645D out-resolves some of the smaller detail than the D810, and mikeSFs journey into the land of 645D are things that keep me hoping someday I'll find one under 3k Canadian. If the Canadian dollar hadn't dived 20% we'd already be there. Need the price of oil to go up, so I can buy a camera...

[mecrox]

Me, I'm still watching for a used 645D. I check every now and then.. I've got a couple of A-lenses. The IR images where the 645D out-resolves some of the smaller detail than the D810, and mikeSFs journey into the land of 645D are things that keep me hoping someday I'll find one under 3k Canadian. If the Canadian dollar hadn't dived 20% we'd already be there. Need the price of oil to go up, so I can buy a camera...

Yes, that's an option I should have thought of and need to keep in mind. Of course the real lottery winner for me would be a Leica Monochrom and a couple of those little lenses of theirs since BW is da bomb in my case ...

[normhead]

Just to add a bit to what you could possibly get with an FF..... the top, a comparison between the k-3 and D7100- the bottom some times for the D750.

The 27-point autofocus system is quick. All save the leftmost and rightmost point are cross-type, which means that they analyze focus vertically and horizontally. This puts cross-type sensors across a wider area of the frame compared to the D7100; only 15 of its 51 points are cross-types sensors. With ample light the K-3 can lock focus and fire its shutter in as little as 0.05-second, but in very dim light the focus speed can slow to about a second; the D7100 matches the 0.05-second speed and is just a little bit faster in dim light at 0.9-second.

the D750 locked onto a target in an average of 0.7-second in very dim light, while the D810 required just under a second to do the same. In bright light the focus speed was about the same, under 0.1-second.

From PC magazine.... that is a pretty impressive difference in AF speed. I've noticed with the K-3 you can only achieve a reasonable burst with AF priority turned off. With a D 750 you could conceivably get 5 fps with focus priority turned on. That could be huge for BiFs etc.

[philbaum]

I'd like to feel I could get the best shot I possibly can when capturing silence and stillness in old country churches. Isn't the feeling that I'm still hunting the best shot, and always will be, one of the whole draws in photography? Nothing is ever finished. When is a painting ever finished? Only when the artist stops painting it. From what I've seen something like a Nikon D810 and an appropriate WA lens will get me nearer to my goal than anything I've so far experienced on APS-C. Whether I could ever afford it, well who knows. But that sensor strikes me as clearly a step up with my purpose in mind. The notion that a sensor half as large is just as good me strikes as inherently implausible. In some circs yes it will be, because a larger format would be complete overkill, but not in all circumstances at all. Alas, though, I am not really waiting for a Pentax FF. Chances are a second-hand D800E or A7R will be affordable a long, long time before a Pentax equivalent is. I'll keep the K3, though, regardless of what pans out. It's too good to pass up for plenty of things.

I envy you your old churches. Agree with you about hunting the best shot. Especially for your wide to slightly longer than normal, it doesn't take a great deal of money to use FF and legacy lenses, esp with some mirrorless or older FF. Long tele lenses are a different matter, which makes me glad i'm not into wildlife shooting, particularly.

[monochrome]

I have been selling used Pentax lenses, autofocus and manual, for a long, long time. Never has it been so hard for me to move Pentax lenses, APS-C and FF, in the USA. This is a very bad sign. We should all buy something new from Ricoh-Pentax in the next quarter no matter how much the sacrifice hurts. Let's support the Pentax FF and not devolve into warring APS-C and FF camps. Things are sketchier than you think right now.

I have noticed the same about the market. There was a well-known Pentax dealer, PF member and PDML contributor who maintained a vibrant eBay store listing 8 - 10 pristine M42 lenses at a time (with an occasional view camera lens or bellows), and then for about 5 years sold 8 - 10 pristine K-series lenses a week. I bought maybe 15 lenses from him over the years.

His store is closed.

Creve Couer Camera in St. Louis has dropped Pentax and the used department has no more Pentax lenses. Schillers has 5 crappy lenses with zoom creep problems instead of an entire case.

Locally, none of my usual buyers has interest in my nice K-series collection, so though I've 'sold' it, haven't actually Sold it.

I don't know what's going on, but whatever it is, it is.

[monochrome]

My comment is - there are times when the Q7 / 01 is the camera of choice for a situation. The IQ is good enough for internet posting and good old 4x6 prints, which is what the vast majority of camera owners print if they print at all. Sure, the decision inputs have more to do with pocket size and carrying capacity than to do with subject matter and creative imaging - but there is an optimal use even for small sensor cameras. .Everything is a compromise. Everything has its place and its sigma utility. Most images can be created equivalently with most ILC's.

For those few situations where a particular format is clearly superior, if you have the body or the cash to buy one, use that tool. Otherwise - admit it - you'll do the best you can with what you have and move on.

Or attempt to dance on a pin.

[jatrax]

This is making my head hurt. I am going to go take pictures............

[Wild Mark]

I have noticed the same about the market. There was a well-known Pentax dealer, PF member and PDML contributor who maintained a vibrant eBay store listing 8 - 10 pristine M42 lenses at a time (with an occasional view camera lens or bellows), and then for about 5 years sold 8 - 10 pristine K-series lenses a week. I bought maybe 15 lenses from him over the years.

His store is closed.

Creve Couer Camera in St. Louis has dropped Pentax and the used department has no more Pentax lenses. Schillers has 5 crappy lenses with zoom creep problems instead of an entire case.

Locally, none of my usual buyers has interest in my nice K-series collection, so though I've 'sold' it, haven't actually Sold it.

I don't know what's going on, but whatever it is, it is.

Yes there does seem to have been a 'change' in the market. I am unsure what the change means though.

My observation/ analysis is slightly different. I have noticed a dearth of good quality lenses for sale full stop. This suggests to me that buyers have already soaked up the good ones. I speculate that the 'supply' of additional good lenses is lacking for two reasons:

1. Users are holding onto their good lenses
2. The supply of good lenses from 'unaware' owners/ sellers has dried up or is trickling at a much lower pace

Stores relying on wholesale prices to maintain their margins have probably disappeared or shrunk as 'wholesale' prices are no longer available. The shrinking supply AND increased awareness of Pentax lens value is probably to blame here.

One thing is for sure, the value of Pentax lenses for quality photographic purposes has not fallen off a cliff!

[Clavius]

Yes there does seem to have been a 'change' in the market. I am unsure what the change means though.

My observation/ analysis is slightly different. I have noticed a dearth of good quality lenses for sale full stop. This suggests to me that buyers have already soaked up the good ones. I speculate that the 'supply' of additional good lenses is lacking for two reasons:

1. Users are holding onto their good lenses
2. The supply of good lenses from 'unaware' owners/ sellers has dried up or is trickling at a much lower pace

Stores relying on wholesale prices to maintain their margins have probably disappeared or shrunk as 'wholesale' prices are no longer available. The shrinking supply AND increased awareness of Pentax lens value is probably to blame here.

One thing is for sure, the value of Pentax lenses for quality photographic purposes has not fallen off a cliff!

Your speculation may be 100% correct. I recently had a similar discussion over at the manual focus forum. Also take into consideration the appearence of third party lens manufacturers focussing only on manual lenses. Think about it. It used to be only us Pentaxians that were in the market for the nice old Pentax lenses. Only Canon cameras were able (with a lot of hassle and tinkering) to use the same lenses. So there was little competition. Now, with all the mirrorless cameras with shorter registry distance a giant number of extra users started competing for the same quantity of golden oldies. It lowered the cost for stepping into photography and access to superior lenses considerably. It also lowered the skills requirements, because manual focussing with the modern cameras is many times more convenient. No figetting with focus screens and shims, no chips to be place on adapters, no pins to fool with tin foil, no aperture leavers to cut. Just slap it on and see how it performs; often leading to a pleasant surprise. It's fun.

[redrockcoulee]

Less calculation involved with focal lenght and equivalence. So in that perspective I can say that a lot of people do actually really need FF format, including myself.

No one has to bother with focal length and equivalence especially if you are only shooting one format. I shoot multiformats, 7 actually, and barely worry about format equivalence and it is very simple once you do use it. A 50 is wide for the Hasselblad, extreme wide angle on the 4X5 and my bellows do not fold enough on the whole plate but it is a normal on my film camera and a slight tele on my K5IIs.I only have the one 50, oh maybe two if I have one for the A110 but taht would mean I have 8 formats. But if I was only shooting cropped sensor a 50 is a slight tele period, I do not need to know what it would be on a full frame or a cropped Canon or the Q.

[jsherman999]

...
Locally, none of my usual buyers has interest in my nice K-series collection, so though I've 'sold' it, haven't actually Sold it.

I don't know what's going on, but whatever it is, it is.

In my neck of the woods the good K-mount used lenses were all mostly sold from local stores by about 2011 or so. For the last 4 years, I've only noticed kit lenses, really crappy off-brand manual zooms and lots of M 50 f/1.7, that kind of thing. When I started collecting K-mount it was the land of plenty in 2007-2008, slowly dried up as everyone snapped up the good stuff. Craigslist still has some good stuff, but again, not like it was in 2008.

.

[philbaum]

Your speculation may be 100% correct. I recently had a similar discussion over at the manual focus forum. Also take into consideration the appearence of third party lens manufacturers focussing only on manual lenses. Think about it. It used to be only us Pentaxians that were in the market for the nice old Pentax lenses. Only Canon cameras were able (with a lot of hassle and tinkering) to use the same lenses. So there was little competition. Now, with all the mirrorless cameras with shorter registry distance a giant number of extra users started competing for the same quantity of golden oldies. It lowered the cost for stepping into photography and access to superior lenses considerably. It also lowered the skills requirements, because manual focussing with the modern cameras is many times more convenient. No figetting with focus screens and shims, no chips to be place on adapters, no pins to fool with tin foil, no aperture leavers to cut. Just slap it on and see how it performs; often leading to a pleasant surprise. It's fun.

Thank you for that post! New photographers don't really understand that there is a whole niche of photography that doesn't require AF. Landscapes, portraits, night photography, astrophotography, zone focused action photography, etc. You may buy an expensive camera body, but be able to limit the rest of your lenses to manual. So cool too. For me, macros are easier done with a mirrorless than DSLR.

I invited one of our older members to demonstrate at our club last night how his 4" by 5" view camera was setup and used. People loved it and asked a lot of questions. He demonstrated how one could tilt the film back and the lens itself to get continuous focus from 3' to infinity. Makes me feel really foolish to be complaining about not having this feature or that feature.

Thats what mirrorless has done for the community, made it very easy to use a variety of manual lenses and focus them in a competent manner.

[normhead]

ya, for those of us who grew up with tilt shift... y'all got cameras that are toys.... and adding a front lens tilt shift without being able to tilt and shift the film plane, that's only half the job. Mind you, tilt shift is so much work I'm not sure I'd be using one if a cheap functional one was available. It sure would be a heck of a lot easier though with digital capture and an iPad to check your images before you head home.

[AtitG]

I'll probably invest in FF glass first before the FF camera. Probably the 77mm and 31mmm limited, and just use them with a K-S2 and film MZ-L. Currently I have no lens that would actually make use of the advantages of FF.