[cfraz]

Doubtful. Ricoh does M&A, they know how to do due diligence and it's not possible for there to be significant 'surprises', unless there are accounting shenanigans that are hidden from everyone, illegally. They knew what they were getting. They may have underestimated the embedded Institutional Inertia that I mentioned before, but that just requires a carrot, a stick... or an axe.[COLOR="Silver"]

I wasn't referring to financials, but to institutional and company culture problems which can be much more debilitating to the bottom line than a balance sheet shows, and to which Jim Malcolm also alluded to about a year after takeover IIRC, as well.

[Omestes]

They're not. They are far, far from starting from scratch - that was my point.

You are correct, I worded that badly. They aren't starting from scratch (i.e. nothing), but they aren't starting from the same place as Sony, Canon, or Nikon, which all have tried and true FF bodies on the market, and have had them for awhile. Pentax is "scratchier" than them, so the lead up time is going to be greater. I have a feeling, though, that there is (perhaps significantly) a lot more involved than just "scaling up" APS-C, though.

[markku55]

I have a feeling, though, that there is (perhaps significantly) a lot more involved than just "scaling up" APS-C, though.

I'm sure you have right, all of the last years development work on APS-C bodies have also taken in use in the new FF body and beside that I believe there is still a lot of development work done "only" for the FF body. For sure this FF body will not only be a scaling up from K5.
In FF body Pentax MUST have better AF, faster prosessing and memory, best in the class viewfinder, ergonomy and useability (all adjustments easy to reach and logical firmware etc.).
It's also a question when the "good enough" technology level is reached and that is the most difficult matter to decide - only as my opinnion

[Rondec]

They're not. They are far, far from starting from scratch - that was my point.

A FF DSLR is not a new product category - it is an iteration of an aps-c DSLR, with a larger sensor, VF housing, mirror box, etc. Pentax has been making DSLRs for 10 years, SLRS for decades before that. The software is all a shared base. Nikon has said that their SW in all their DSLRs is essentially the same, with some modules simply enabled, disabled or left out depending on the model, and with UI tweaks.

A new product - a start-from-scratch effort - might be something closer to a MILC FF body and mount, although Ricoh has experience there already.

They might as well have been starting from scratch. Auto focus had not been improved for several generations of APS-C camera. There were no full frame zooms in the line up. I would assume that it took at least six months for Ricoh to decide that they were willing to go forward with full frame and that it took the remainder of the time to get things together for the 70-200 and 24-70 and their wide angle zoom. If we have learned one thing from Ricoh, it is that they want things to be done right the first time and will delay releases of products if necessary to get there. This means that the glass for the coming full frame should be really good, but it meant that it took longer to get said camera and glass to market than we wanted it to.

On the other hand, to release a poorly developed product with sub-optimal glass and poor auto focus performance would have been disastrous.

To the question at the beginning, there are no bad cameras out there. The question is how much you are willing to spend on a body and glass. Cheapest options will certainly be Sony mirrorless full frames which are amazingly cheap. Pentax's camera will not be cheap, nor will the full frame glass they release with it. On the other hand, it certainly will give improvements in dynamic range and high iso capability, however it must be noted that these do come at the expense of having less depth of field. If you need maximal depth of field on a landscape image, you are unlikely to see as much benefit going to full frame, as you will have to stop down more to match smaller format's depth of field.

Everyone has a favorite format and is pleased with their choice and will argue that it is the perfect choice. There is no doubt that APS-C cameras are compromise cameras -- initially released because full frame sensors were prohibitively expensive -- but for a lot of photographers, they are still good enough to get the job done, which is why they still out sell larger sensored cameras by a significant margin.

[Omestes]

They might as well have been starting from scratch...

You also have a point, they have to hit the market with a rock star, or the whole thing could be nothing but a disaster. I was thinking more in line of the small technical problems that don't seem small, but really are giant hurdles unless you already have the experience and designs.

I really hope FF is a rock star. And I really hope Ricoh markets the hell out of it.

As for the initial question... That was settled last night, with a very slow, and trepidatious click on B&H's site. I decided that FF (at least right now) isn't for me. I'm still very much a learning hobbiest, so I don't need the absolute best (that isn't the 645z). The K3 or K3ii are more than enough camera for me. For the same, supposed, price of the FF I managed to get a massive upgrade to my "small kit", the EM5 ii, a lens to fill a gap in that kit, a fast normal. And as of tonight the aging K3, since I realized I didn't really need much of what the ii offered. I'm still not sure if I made the " right" choice, but I know I'm not going to be disappointed either.

One of the reasons I didn't go for FF, is that I'd rather wait and see. I want to see what Pentax managed to get out, and wait for people to shoot with it for a year or so. There were other factors, obviously, but that was the one I kept coming back too.

[jsherman999]

...That was settled last night, with a very slow, and trepidatious click on B&H's site. I decided that FF (at least right now) isn't for me. I'm still very much a learning hobbiest, so I don't need the absolute best (that isn't the 645z).

One thing you may want to consider is buying something used, like a used D700 and a 50 f/1.8, or use Tamron 28-75 2.8. You can get a gently-used D700 for probably around $800-$1000. Less DR at base ISO than your K3, but around ISO 400 the D700 pulls away in DR and retains about a stop of SNR (noise perf) throughout the range. Plus the body has magical-fast AF lock and tracking. IMO it makes a great addition to a kit.

[Omestes]

One thing you may want to consider is buying something used, like a used D700 and a 50 f/1.8, or use Tamron 28-75 2.8. You can get a gently-used D700 for probably around $800-$1000. Less DR at base ISO than your K3, but around ISO 400 the D700 pulls away in DR and retains about a stop of SNR (noise perf) throughout the range. Plus the body has magical-fast AF lock and tracking. IMO it makes a great addition to a kit.

One thing you may want to consider is buying something used, like a used D700 and a 50 f/1.8, or use Tamron 28-75 2.8.

I can just see my girlfriends reaction... "Oh not another one!"

That isn't a terrible idea, really. But I'll probably stick that on the back burner, because getting a new system is dangerous, since it means I'll be tempted to expand it. I'm probably, depending on impressions, going to wait until the Pentax FF (name it already!) hits the used market, or gets marked down by its replacement. With Pentax FF, I can use most of my existing glass, so at the same point it would be cheaper. I'm not in a hurry, I still haven't rung the juice out of my existing collection.

[Winder]

They're not. They are far, far from starting from scratch - that was my point.

I think they might actually be starting from scratch. I think the K-3II might be the last of the old technology.

1. I think the K-3II will be the last upper end camera to have the SAFOX AF system. It has always be 1 or 2 generations behind the big 3. Completely new AF system. Ricoh has filled patents for this.
2. I think the K-3 will be the last upper end camera to have a Fujitsu image processor. We will see a totally new image processor with a huge increase in processing power.
3. New IBIS designed for the heavier FF sensor. Maybe 5-axis.
4. New OVF with some form of an overlay or information projection for live histograms and exposure. Ricoh has filled patents for this.
5. Possible a switchable mirror instead of a moving mirror. Ricoh has filled patents for this.
6. Improved JPEG engine.
7. 4K hardware of some type. Will probably support external 4K.
8. Built-in WiFi.
9. USH-II support.
10. USB-C Support.

I was expecting to see the K-3II as a test bed for new technology. I think the fact that the K-3II has very little new technology in it means that we are going to see a complete over-hall of the hardware and the FF will share very little with the K-3II. At this point, if they haven't started over from scratch, they are screwed.

[Rondec]

One thing you may want to consider is buying something used, like a used D700 and a 50 f/1.8, or use Tamron 28-75 2.8. You can get a gently-used D700 for probably around $800-$1000. Less DR at base ISO than your K3, but around ISO 400 the D700 pulls away in DR and retains about a stop of SNR (noise perf) throughout the range. Plus the body has magical-fast AF lock and tracking. IMO it makes a great addition to a kit.

The problem is that LBA isn't that easy a master. You start in a new system and you think to yourself: "All I need is a kit lens and a 50mm prime..." and two years later you've spent a couple of grand in lenses.

[SpecialK]

The problem is that LBA isn't that easy a master. You start in a new system and you think to yourself: "All I need is a kit lens and a 50mm prime..." and two years later you've spent a couple of grand in lenses.

Doubly tough when you have 2 bodies, but some lenses only work on one...

[mecrox]

I think they might actually be starting from scratch. I think the K-3II might be the last of the old technology.

1. I think the K-3II will be the last upper end camera to have the SAFOX AF system. It has always be 1 or 2 generations behind the big 3. Completely new AF system. Ricoh has filled patents for this.
2. I think the K-3 will be the last upper end camera to have a Fujitsu image processor. We will see a totally new image processor with a huge increase in processing power.
3. New IBIS designed for the heavier FF sensor. Maybe 5-axis.
4. New OVF with some form of an overlay or information projection for live histograms and exposure. Ricoh has filled patents for this.
5. Possible a switchable mirror instead of a moving mirror. Ricoh has filled patents for this.
6. Improved JPEG engine.
7. 4K hardware of some type. Will probably support external 4K.
8. Built-in WiFi.
9. USH-II support.

I was expecting to see the K-3II as a test bed for new technology. I think the fact that the K-3II has very little new technology in it means that we are going to see a complete over-hall of the hardware and the FF will share very little with the K-3II. At this point, if they haven't started over from scratch, they are screwed.

You could be on to something with this. Ricoh buy the whole imaging pipeline from Sony, not just the sensor, since processor and sensor are more closely integrated than they used to be. In fact you could almost take it further and envisage a cross-holding deal. Sony gets access to Ricoh's patents and a stake in MF via the 645. Ricoh gets the electronics it needs and maybe is asked to position Pentax DSLRs in the space now occupied by the stuttering Sony A DSLR series which Sony tires of supporting. Both put one over on Nikon which is left to go it alone. Ah, the charms of Friday night armchair strategy ...

[repaap]

To my eyes it really seems that Ricoh is working with slow paste. Trying to get best out of everything that they still have. Not pursuing immediatelly to newest and shiniest. If it happens to be with in reach they will do it. (645Z, which has same sensor as some other brands newest has) and holding up that and developing all other lies at same time consumes time and timing is one thing. Getting things right is an other.

As has been said they need to make new FF a rockstar, which will stand up to it's competetors. It is not same as Nikon or Canon releases their new what ever. With oil leaks and what ever. For them it is bad thing, and with new model they try to make up that mistake. No hard feelings. But if pentax makes those mistakes with their first...they will not be something special. They will be fiat, trying to race with nascars with hightuned engine. All alarmlights glowing.

Who would pursue that in their right minds.?
Because, 'we' want it yesterday!?

[markku55]

I think they might actually be starting from scratch. I think the K-3II might be the last of the old technology.

1. I think the K-3II will be the last upper end camera to have the SAFOX AF system. It has always be 1 or 2 generations behind the big 3. Completely new AF system. Ricoh has filled patents for this.
2. I think the K-3 will be the last upper end camera to have a Fujitsu image processor. We will see a totally new image processor with a huge increase in processing power.
3. New IBIS designed for the heavier FF sensor. Maybe 5-axis.
4. New OVF with some form of an overlay or information projection for live histograms and exposure. Ricoh has filled patents for this.
5. Possible a switchable mirror instead of a moving mirror. Ricoh has filled patents for this.
6. Improved JPEG engine.
7. 4K hardware of some type. Will probably support external 4K.
8. Built-in WiFi.
9. USH-II support.
10. USB-C Support.

I was expecting to see the K-3II as a test bed for new technology. I think the fact that the K-3II has very little new technology in it means that we are going to see a complete over-hall of the hardware and the FF will share very little with the K-3II. At this point, if they haven't started over from scratch, they are screwed.

I hope you have right.
I believe that when the resolutions are becoming higher and because of everything must be processed faster there must be more hardware to take care of processing, software is not capable to proces fast enough so huge amount of data which is needed in FF cameras in future, and I hope that Pentax is in that way already now.

[Winder]

I hope you have right.
I believe that when the resolutions are becoming higher and because of everything must be processed faster there must be more hardware to take care of processing, software is not capable to proces fast enough so huge amount of data which is needed in FF cameras in future, and I hope that Pentax is in that way already now.

Everyone keeps talking about the mega-pickles, but 6MP more is pretty nominal. This sensor has DRAM built in to it and a readout speed that is 5x faster than the previous 36MP chip. Maybe some of the tech types can chime in, but I don't think Fujitsu makes anything that can handle that kind of speed. I might be wrong, but it looks like the sensors and image processing pipeline are becoming more integrated and it going to be harder to buy components from different sources.

[markku55]

Everyone keeps talking about the mega-pickles, but 6MP more is pretty nominal. This sensor has DRAM built in to it and a readout speed that is 5x faster than the previous 36MP chip. Maybe some of the tech types can chime in, but I don't think Fujitsu makes anything that can handle that kind of speed. I might be wrong, but it looks like the sensors and image processing pipeline are becoming more integrated and it going to be harder to buy components from different sources.

That will be the future, you have to buy more or less a complete system and to buy every part separately will be more and more difficult for every camera maker - I believe.