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07-07-2015, 10:48 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
If you had read my post, I did not say that the picture of shutter shock was from the D800, I said that the "picture" and the "discussion of the D800E" was in the article i linked. And they were.

If you go to the Thom Hogan site: Nikon Tweaks the D800, Creates D810 | byThom | Thom Hogan

You will find this statement: Live View now utilizes an electronic first curtain shutter, which minimizes shutter shock

with regard to the D810. Nikon also referred to the anti-shutter shock measure in publicity materials on the D750.

Why would they implement anti-shutter shock measures in the D810 and D750 if the original D800e was free of them??????????? Rhetorical question only.

You either don't go to the links folks provide, don't spend time to read them, or don't comprehend them - but the information is out there. I do know my friend wouldn't have given up on an $3000 camera without going thru all the prescribed efforts.
Phil...again...please relax with your jabs and assumptions.

"You either don't go to the links folks provide, don't spend time to read them, or don't comprehend them..."

Do you even know anything about me? No...and yet you presume I'm just dense or lazy from simply having a different viewpoint than you? Why? I doubt if you talk to people this way in person..so really...be an adult to us in this forum?

I don't care who knows more or who knows less, as our identity isn't based on being a camera hot shot or a better photographer than one another...none of that matters or makes either of us above the other....so let's be civil and helpful toward each other.

Shuttershock is well understood by myself, as I've shot with Hasselblad and their big boxy bodies that provided a big ol flop of the mirror, Bronica, Pentax 645, Pentax 6x7, Pentax 67, Pentax 67 II, Canon EOS (from their first autofocus and onward), Nikon, and blah blah blah...lots and lots of other cameras and lenses, and leaf shutter lenses as well (which of course can alleviate shutter shock for the most part since the shutter is in the lens) in medium format and large format. Shutter shock is ALWAYS a factor to design around...and there's always room for improvement until shuttershock is at zero vibration.

So...with that said..it's no big deal for Thom Hogan to say "Live View now utilizes an electronic first curtain shutter, which minimizes shutter shock". That just means the new D810 minimizes shutter shock even more than the D800...doesn't say anything about the D800 having a plague of problems...if shutter shock is problematic on a D800 it's the exception not the norm....hence my saying that your friend simply needed to get it fixed or get it returned and swapped out....in fact...you've already said the same thing as myself when you admit that the D800 does NOT have a shutter shock problem:

Phil: "It can't be happening on even a majority of the D800, or the uproar would be amazing."

In fact, if you did what you accuse me of not doing...reading the link that was supplied above, you'll see the results from the comparison between the D810 and D800 shutter shock...and what are the results of the test?:

"The The worst shutter speeds for both cameras are around 1/40 second, with the D810 again being slightly better. The difference between the two cameras is greater in this orientation, but in both cases the differences are small; THIS IS NOT a reason to upgrade from a D800."

This test was found at: Mirror slap and shutter shock on the Nikon D810 | The Last Word

So to recap...you're saying the D800 has a shuttershock problem...but then you say most of them actually don't, which again..is actually correct...and why I said your friend simply needed to exchange his D800 but for whatever reason, chose not to. Not a choice I agree with having had the privilege of enjoying the D800e for some time now. They're awesome.

You also are trying to say the D810 is a noticeable improvement over the D800 in the area of shuttershock, and cite Thom Hogan as endorsing your viewpoint when in fact he doesn't....he simply says that the D810 is an improvement, but not how much of an improvement.

Testing for how much of an improvement, in the link you may not have read above, the results show clearly that the improvement is absolutely minimal..and not a reason to upgrade to the D810. So...the D810 can't be a big improvement like you're trying to assert.

Hope this helps keep us all grounded in facts and aware of whose posts have credibility and whose may need to be questioned or researched further.

The only thing I didn't research is the definition of rhetorical...I may have gotten that part wrong.

07-08-2015, 03:11 AM - 1 Like   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by locophoto2015 Quote
Phil...again...please relax with your jabs and assumptions.

"You either don't go to the links folks provide, don't spend time to read them, or don't comprehend them..."

Do you even know anything about me? No...and yet you presume I'm just dense or lazy from simply having a different viewpoint than you? Why? I doubt if you talk to people this way in person..so really...be an adult to us in this forum?

I don't care who knows more or who knows less, as our identity isn't based on being a camera hot shot or a better photographer than one another...none of that matters or makes either of us above the other....so let's be civil and helpful toward each other.

Shuttershock is well understood by myself, as I've shot with Hasselblad and their big boxy bodies that provided a big ol flop of the mirror, Bronica, Pentax 645, Pentax 6x7, Pentax 67, Pentax 67 II, Canon EOS (from their first autofocus and onward), Nikon, and blah blah blah...lots and lots of other cameras and lenses, and leaf shutter lenses as well (which of course can alleviate shutter shock for the most part since the shutter is in the lens) in medium format and large format. Shutter shock is ALWAYS a factor to design around...and there's always room for improvement until shuttershock is at zero vibration.

So...with that said..it's no big deal for Thom Hogan to say "Live View now utilizes an electronic first curtain shutter, which minimizes shutter shock". That just means the new D810 minimizes shutter shock even more than the D800...doesn't say anything about the D800 having a plague of problems...if shutter shock is problematic on a D800 it's the exception not the norm....hence my saying that your friend simply needed to get it fixed or get it returned and swapped out....in fact...you've already said the same thing as myself when you admit that the D800 does NOT have a shutter shock problem:

Phil: "It can't be happening on even a majority of the D800, or the uproar would be amazing."

In fact, if you did what you accuse me of not doing...reading the link that was supplied above, you'll see the results from the comparison between the D810 and D800 shutter shock...and what are the results of the test?:

"The The worst shutter speeds for both cameras are around 1/40 second, with the D810 again being slightly better. The difference between the two cameras is greater in this orientation, but in both cases the differences are small; THIS IS NOT a reason to upgrade from a D800."

This test was found at: Mirror slap and shutter shock on the Nikon D810 | The Last Word

So to recap...you're saying the D800 has a shuttershock problem...but then you say most of them actually don't, which again..is actually correct...and why I said your friend simply needed to exchange his D800 but for whatever reason, chose not to. Not a choice I agree with having had the privilege of enjoying the D800e for some time now. They're awesome.

You also are trying to say the D810 is a noticeable improvement over the D800 in the area of shuttershock, and cite Thom Hogan as endorsing your viewpoint when in fact he doesn't....he simply says that the D810 is an improvement, but not how much of an improvement.

Testing for how much of an improvement, in the link you may not have read above, the results show clearly that the improvement is absolutely minimal..and not a reason to upgrade to the D810. So...the D810 can't be a big improvement like you're trying to assert.

Hope this helps keep us all grounded in facts and aware of whose posts have credibility and whose may need to be questioned or researched further.

The only thing I didn't research is the definition of rhetorical...I may have gotten that part wrong.
Did you create a forum account just to defend the D800? Because I don't think anyone thinks the D800 is a bad camera, not even Phil. He just thinks that eventually mechanical shutters will be replaced by electronic ones. It could happen and certainly it wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings if that happened.
07-09-2015, 12:49 AM   #138
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I'm not replying again, as I consider it a waste of time at this point, but no...I created an account as I just found this forum and am an avid fan of many manufacturers, including Pentax.

In my one post though Phil was getting snide and insulting for no reason and without provocation, so I simply took the time on a whim to point out facts and ask him to tone it down a notch since my comments didn't need to chastised with insults to my intelligence....honestly...I don't normally post about petty stuff, so part of this is my fault, I let myself get dragged into something adolescent. I'm done.

I don't defend cameras for what it's worth, but I do defend truth, and it's pretty clear that Phil is not spot on in his perceptions and posts about the D800. To me it doesn't matter what camera is being discussed...if there's much error in the posts then it's helpful to forum members and readers to correct it, otherwise bad information pollinates to other minds and beliefs, creating many wastes of time for many people.

Enough said, sorry for any friction sensed...started out just wanting to encourage people toward a great sensor that is likely coming to a Pentax near you in November...nothing to be concerned about whatsoever, and Phil's friend was obviously mistaken to overreact in dumping the camera for "shutter shock" when that clearly isn't an issue the camera suffers from in any negative degree noticeably greater than other equally great or less great cameras. Shutter shock is in all cameras. Just not a big deal whatsoever.
07-09-2015, 07:16 AM   #139
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Here's the point I like, through all of the posts (rancor aside)... Technology has progressed to the point that sensors push the envelope, resolutions match/exceed most films allowing APSc Crops (roughly the old half-frame) to work and excel, processors improve, AF improves (keep in mind that some AF "delays" are actually due to a higher level of precision), we need better coatings for flare and to help attack little gems like crosstalk (albeit from another angle... sorry about the pun), and the related shutter issues (wherever experienced). I am not a Nikon "basher" (except their lenses, we all have our likes/disses ), but the mirror/ shutter shock bundle IS another unintended consequence of all of the new "precision" we enjoy (hopefully)... Canon, Nikon, Pentax, etal R&D departments WILL engineer this bundle of joy out, but... More little gems will come during such an exciting technological disruption... Gee, I love this stuff. Pics are getting better too...

07-09-2015, 04:31 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
Here's the point I like, through all of the posts (rancor aside)... Technology has progressed to the point that sensors push the envelope, resolutions match/exceed most films allowing APSc Crops (roughly the old half-frame) to work and excel, processors improve, AF improves (keep in mind that some AF "delays" are actually due to a higher level of precision), we need better coatings for flare and to help attack little gems like crosstalk (albeit from another angle... sorry about the pun), and the related shutter issues (wherever experienced). I am not a Nikon "basher" (except their lenses, we all have our likes/disses ), but the mirror/ shutter shock bundle IS another unintended consequence of all of the new "precision" we enjoy (hopefully)... Canon, Nikon, Pentax, etal R&D departments WILL engineer this bundle of joy out, but... More little gems will come during such an exciting technological disruption... Gee, I love this stuff. Pics are getting better too...
Agreed. I like your use of "unintended consequences". There's a lot of that going on in human endeavors. Several industries employ "quality insurance inspectors" to look at products before they go out the door. They are trying to identify whats wrong with the product. Its a different mindset. A lot of us are trying to find ways of making something work, and inspectors are doing just the opposite.

There are both good and bad unintended consequences. One of the good unintended consequences of the internet is the sharing of product information between customers. Its sort of brutal, but it acts to keep manufacturers accountable for their designs. Without photography forums to discuss equipment, i don't think cameras would be anywhere as good as they are today. And they are very good!
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