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05-20-2015, 02:42 AM - 1 Like   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
In all seriousness, if Pentax-FF threads are going to be limited to ONLY discuss Pentax-FF information, then they all bleed to death in a a post or three at max. Simply because it doesn't exist yet and neither does any further solid information on it.
I've no problem with people talking about Sony (though I hate them with a passion for reasons I will not go into here. Like their sensors though!) or any other competing system. It's the constant repetition of the same points over and over that get my goat.

05-20-2015, 03:01 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
I've no problem with people talking about Sony (though I hate them with a passion for reasons I will not go into here. Like their sensors though!) or any other competing system. It's the constant repetition of the same points over and over that get my goat.
I understand that. Of course as soon as there is any hint of how the problem will be resolved by Pentax all the repetition of this problem will disappear. Threads used to derail in FF threads constantly, that has stopped completely since the FF plans came out too.
05-20-2015, 03:34 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
October. I can't find my source which is current, but here is a similiar source for a recent 8 year period: Crunching the Numbers: Four Insights We Can Glean from Camera Sales Data

And I don't believe for a second that their FF development started prior to their 3D print. That was a marketing stunt because R&D are empty-handed.

I think I learned my share to read the signs when they are on the wall ...
Never having worked in camera development, I don't know how those who do go about it. In other industries, "mules" or test beds are employed to develop the technology and componentry. What was shown when the Pentax FF body was initially announced was the state of thinking on packaging all of that, so we can fairly safely assume that the sub-assemblies were largely firmed up by then. To suggest otherwise would indicate that the announcement stating it would be out by the end of the year was deliberately misleading. I don't think Japanese culture would favour that.

However, a little thought demonstrates what their timelines might be in bringing it to market, just to test the hypothesis. I understand that they will need to start production several months before the first shipment, so assuming sales will commence in time for the Xmas shopping season, that means they'll have to be in the distributors' hands in the main markets by mid-October or thereabouts. That means the first batch will have to be out of the factory at least two weeks beforehand (for airfreight) or six weeks for seafreight. Assuming they don't get held up excessively in customs on arrival, they'll therefore have to be ex-factory by the end of September at the latest, or the beginning of September at the earliest. Allowing for sample checking on batch completion, that suggests the initial (presumably small) production batch will have to commence some time in August. From the time of showing the 3D print exercise in February, that allows six months for design completion, production prototype build and testing, sign-off, component ordering and production. Tight, but possible, I'd say.

Perhaps Ricoh isn't fussed about missing the end of calendar year sales round. If that's the case, then what we'll see by the end of the year is pre-production working demonstration models, and a further announcement about when it will be available in the shops.
05-20-2015, 04:48 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
Have I strayed into the Sony forum by mistake? Only one problem with Sony - it's the name on the camera!
And the fact that they cripple big time their RAW format...

05-20-2015, 05:03 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
P.S. Ricoh Imaging started to talk about the development of a FF since 2012...
Yes, they confirmed to be thinking about it. We always interpret their signs in the most positive way, this time being no exception.

QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
But they also debuted the two new big FF lenses at exactly the same event as the 'plastic lump'
I realize the lenses are further progressed. Probably, because they need other lenses (24-70/2.8 to name the most important one) and had to do it in stages. The two lenses coming now are the ones making the most sense for APSC too, so probably, was easier to reach an early management consenus about.

The plastic lump (which can be made in a couple of days) is a strong sign that the final management consenus to actually do the FF body was as late as the days preceeding CP+, possibly with the plastic lump being made just in case of a positive decision. Because of course, Pentax knows that they are extremely late to the party and already lost most of its available FF market. Don't miss the detail that they didn't even manage to paint the button labels ...

QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
What was shown when the Pentax FF body was initially announced was the state of thinking on packaging all of that, so we can fairly safely assume that the sub-assemblies were largely firmed up by then.
[...]
From the time of showing the 3D print exercise in February, that allows six months for design completion, production prototype build and testing, sign-off, component ordering and production. Tight, but possible, I'd say.
Tight but possible, true.

However, this thread is about "news expected for closer to November". Once I read this I knew they missed the above tight schedule. Now, it is spring 2016 as earliest date sales could start. If the thread's initial info is correct at all.
05-20-2015, 05:19 AM   #51
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I wouldn't read to much into Pentax Australia's Facebook post. In fact I reckon it is consistent with, say a November release date, with that made known in Sept/October.
05-20-2015, 05:43 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
the final management consenus to actually do the FF body was as late as the days preceeding CP+
I really want to believe that Ricoh management 'formed a consensus' on actually manufacturing a FF well before CP+.

If it turns out that the FF launch is indeed going to be in 2016 and Photokina, that will be very disappointing to many.

I guess there will always be a lot of unknowns about what Ricoh is thinking and doing about the FF. But they certainly must have gotten a strong message by now about the level of interest in such a product.

It's always possible that any delay may not be directly Ricoh's fault. Ricoh may be waiting on a third party technology supplier (like image processing chip maker Fujitsu) that may have been slow in delivering chip support for the kind of features Ricoh want to offer in a FF.
05-20-2015, 05:45 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Yes, they confirmed to be thinking about it. We always interpret their signs in the most positive way, this time being no exception.


I realize the lenses are further progressed. Probably, because they need other lenses (24-70/2.8 to name the most important one) and had to do it in stages. The two lenses coming now are the ones making the most sense for APSC too, so probably, was easier to reach an early management consenus about.

The plastic lump (which can be made in a couple of days) is a strong sign that the final management consenus to actually do the FF body was as late as the days preceeding CP+, possibly with the plastic lump being made just in case of a positive decision. Because of course, Pentax knows that they are extremely late to the party and already lost most of its available FF market. Don't miss the detail that they didn't even manage to paint the button labels ...


Tight but possible, true.

However, this thread is about "news expected for closer to November". Once I read this I knew they missed the above tight schedule. Now, it is spring 2016 as earliest date sales could start. If the thread's initial info is correct at all.
Not to mention the fact that Ricoh started a suggestion poll/forum to enquire about the requirements of the possible FF camera only after presenting the plastic model at CP+. That indicates that the development process was still in an early enough stage to include suggestions. (Or, that the suggestion forum was a farce.)

05-20-2015, 06:23 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
If it turns out that the FF launch is indeed going to be in 2016 and Photokina, that will be very disappointing to many.
At this point ANY delay - even if caused by a pending new imaging processor (rumored to be the cause of the K-3 delay and K-5II substitution) - would be the stake in the heart to remaining K-mount FF hopeful.

Dust to Dusted.

Last edited by monochrome; 05-20-2015 at 07:09 AM.
05-20-2015, 06:25 AM - 1 Like   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Yes, they confirmed to be thinking about it. We always interpret their signs in the most positive way, this time being no exception.

I realize the lenses are further progressed. Probably, because they need other lenses (24-70/2.8 to name the most important one) and had to do it in stages. The two lenses coming now are the ones making the most sense for APSC too, so probably, was easier to reach an early management consenus about.

The plastic lump (which can be made in a couple of days) is a strong sign that the final management consenus to actually do the FF body was as late as the days preceeding CP+, possibly with the plastic lump being made just in case of a positive decision. Because of course, Pentax knows that they are extremely late to the party and already lost most of its available FF market. Don't miss the detail that they didn't even manage to paint the button labels ...
Falk, you're wrong. You're assuming that the mock-up they shown at CP+ reflect the real stage of development, and that at the moment they promised to deliver later this year, they actually didn't made a decision. That makes no sense whatsoever.
The mock-up is nothing more than that, a teaser; even in its absence they would still be working on the FF. And as I said, we were told about the FF long before CP+ 2015. In 2012 they said: "We are developing towards commercial production".

The actual development started some 3 years ago, as they said to DPReview:
"How long have you been working on this upcoming camera?

About two years ago one of our top engineers confirmed that Pentax was studying development of full-frame. We had actually started this work earlier - about three years ago."
CP+ 2015 Ricoh Imaging interview - full-frame DSLR may have 'something extra built-in': Digital Photography Review
This fits nicely with an assumed development time of about 3 years (as claimed for the Samsung NX-1) and the delivery date.

So please stop spreading misinformation.

Last edited by Kunzite; 05-20-2015 at 07:15 AM.
05-20-2015, 07:08 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
At this point ANY delay - even f caused by a pending new imaging processor (rumored to be the cause of the K-3 delay and K-5II substitution) - would be the stake in the heart to remaining K-mount FF hopeful.

Dust to Dusted.
At this point I don't think they can do much more damage. From a FF hopeful perspective, they have already hit rock bottom. As long as they can keep releasing the D-FA* lenses everything will be fine.
05-20-2015, 07:39 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
As long as they can keep releasing the D-FA* lenses everything will be fine.
Unfortunately even that seems to have hit a snag, with the delays to the DFA 70-200 release.
05-20-2015, 03:31 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Unfortunately even that seems to have hit a snag, with the delays to the DFA 70-200 release.
The D-FA* 150-400mm is shipping and looks like a great lens. Right now I think that is the more important lens because the community has been really wanting something in this range for APS-C & FF. The 70-200mm is a core lens for the FF crowd and as long as its out before the FF body I think they are fine.

Ricoh seems to be slow in general. I think they need to be more aggressive, but they seem to be extremely cautious.
05-20-2015, 04:06 PM   #59
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I'm waiting for the FF. Don't want to get a K3/3ii then decide I want a FF in a few months.

Just my okld kr for now :/
05-20-2015, 04:25 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
So please stop spreading misinformation
I don't spread misinformation. We read the same sources. Over the years, I've only learned that what I wish what a Pentax statement means, and what it actually turns out to be, do not always coincide.
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