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06-28-2015, 10:45 PM   #121
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It's strange that the 'shutter shock' issue does not appear to arise so much with the 645D and 645Z, despite their high MP counts.

Maybe it's not just the MP count so much as the damping etc of the shutter and mirror mechanism. Pentax (judging by the K-5/K-3), knows how to do shutter noise and vibration dampening quite well. Maybe the Pentax FF, even if 42 MP, will dodge this bullet.

06-28-2015, 11:37 PM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
It's strange that the 'shutter shock' issue does not appear to arise so much with the 645D and 645Z, despite their high MP counts.

Maybe it's not just the MP count so much as the damping etc of the shutter and mirror mechanism. Pentax (judging by the K-5/K-3), knows how to do shutter noise and vibration dampening quite well. Maybe the Pentax FF, even if 42 MP, will dodge this bullet.
I don't know if you remember, but I believe it was Falk that identified some amount of Shutter Shock on the K7. I suspect Pentax learned from that (because he sent his information to them as i remember) and has been careful to dampen the shutters ever since. Relatively quiet shutters are a good sign of manufacturing due diligence - noisy shutters - just the opposite.

Any camera with a mechanical shutter will have some vibration of the body due to the kinetic energy of the moving shutter stopping and transferring that energy to movement of the body. The heavier the body/lens combo, the less the movement of the body. The DPR article talks about other ways of reducing the amount of movement: Sony's use of electronic first curtain, dampening, using a tripod, etc. A lighter shutter would also help a lot. The high number of pixels on the 36mp and larger MP cameras makes the movement more detectable but does not contribute to the vibration in any way. By the way, the body movement is worse at some shutter speeds - the above pic was reportedly at 1/100s.

The body weight on the Pentax 645d and z helps to reduce the amount of movement. I don't know the weight of the Canon body in the 5Ds camera - hopefully its heavy or the've taken other action to mitigate body movement. The Sony A7 series probably suffered the most (the picture is from the A7r) because of the extreme light body weight - like under 500gms i believe.

I find it sad that camera mfrs are in such a frenzied mode to put out new cameras that they don't have time to test these models adequately before producing them in large quantities. The equipment for testing machinery vibrations has been around for decades.
06-29-2015, 01:50 AM   #123
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All I can add to the debate is that I had the D800, and now the D810, and I didn't get blurring due to shutter shock, either on a tripod or hand held.
06-29-2015, 01:58 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I don't know if you remember, but I believe it was Falk that identified some amount of Shutter Shock on the K7.
Now that you mention it, I do remember. He's done some good investigations on several issues, like the K-7 shutter-shock and the K-5 tungsten lighting AF problem. Not to mention his D800 AF point problem solving work. Kudos to him.

Pentax continues to make prominent mention of their mirror-bounce dampening system in the K-3II, I notice:


I guess the FF will adopt this too.

Interestingly, mirror-bounce dampening is not mentioned at all on the Pentax web site in relation to the 645Z. Mustn't be a issue.

However it was prominently mentioned as a 645D selling feature on the Pentax web site:
QuoteQuote:
Low-shock, low-noise mirror mechanism guarantees smooth, quiet operation unmatched by other medium-format cameras

The 645D’s mirror works extremely quietly, because its swing-up motion is regulated by a braking mechanism, while its swing-down motion is controlled by a motor. As a result, camera shake during mirror swing-up and viewfinder image shake during swing-down are effectively minimized. Coupled with the low-noise charge mechanism in the new shutter unit, the 645D assures quiet, disturbance-free shooting at all times.


06-29-2015, 07:40 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
All I can add to the debate is that I had the D800, and now the D810, and I didn't get blurring due to shutter shock, either on a tripod or hand held.
I believe you. It can't be happening on even a majority of the D800, or the uproar would be amazing. It sounds like they took at least some steps on the D810 to mitigate it. It may have something to do with the building tolerances, or some variation of shutter assemblies that leads to more extreme vibrations in some of the cameras. Just place your hand on your camera, trip the shutter and you can feel the shutter vibrations as they rip thru the camera - like i said - any camera with a mechanical shutter. Does it affect your images - if you can't see it - why worry about it. Its a messy world out there that we are photographing - get used to it.

Its like the issue about SDM. some members would get mad at me for reporting my SDM lenses as not failing - and i have some of the problematic models. But for some customers, obviously they did fail. Same sort of manufacturing variation in dimensions or materials that leads to some failures. A problem may happen to only 5% of the quantity, but is it still a problem. It sure is - for the owners of the 5% that failed. People like a linear world, they don't want to hear about partial failures. If their owned product failed - then it must be a bad camera and a bad manufacturer

@rawr - thanks for the video and information - Good for Pentax in taking the K7 information seriously.

Last edited by philbaum; 06-29-2015 at 07:58 AM.
06-29-2015, 08:32 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
All I can add to the debate is that I had the D800, and now the D810, and I didn't get blurring due to shutter shock, either on a tripod or hand held.
Yet I took out 2 clients, a couple of brothers, one with a D800 and one with a D810 who both experienced it. By forum rules where the number who experience and issue's importance is magnified by 10 to make it look like a big issue, this is a huge issue and Nikon is doomed. Obviously for every 20 who experience it, there are two who didn't. At least if we were to go by SDM crying and gnashing of teeth, that would be the way to calculate it.
06-29-2015, 08:58 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Yet I took out 2 clients, a couple of brothers, one with a D800 and one with a D810 who both experienced it. By forum rules where the number who experience and issue's importance is magnified by 10 to make it look like a big issue, this is a huge issue and Nikon is doomed. Obviously for every 20 who experience it, there are two who didn't. At least if we were to go by SDM crying and gnashing of teeth, that would be the way to calculate it.
I think mechanical shutters will go extinct eventually. They don't have them on smart phones or drones Another reason to get rid of mech. shutters - oil drops :-(
06-29-2015, 09:23 PM   #128
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No disrespect to anyone who bought the D800/810 bodies, but I can't help wondering how many of the sales were to people who just bought it because it was the most expensive/most exalted FF body available at the time, and who don't critically look at their results. I'd like to think it would be a small percentage, but I can't help thinking of the number of people who buy expensive motorcars, and wouldn't know how to drive them to anywhere near their capabilities.

06-30-2015, 03:19 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
No disrespect to anyone who bought the D800/810 bodies, but I can't help wondering how many of the sales were to people who just bought it because it was the most expensive/most exalted FF body available at the time, and who don't critically look at their results. I'd like to think it would be a small percentage, but I can't help thinking of the number of people who buy expensive motorcars, and wouldn't know how to drive them to anywhere near their capabilities.
I find this a rather strange viewpoint. I bought both the D800 (now sold) and D810 and I can assure you that I do look critically at the results at the pixel level. It's not because I want to print huge, but because I sometimes crop very heavily, for example, to get a single portrait from a group, or because it is a bird in flight. I haven't had any problems due to lack of sharpness, except when my own technique has been a bit sloppy. I also have an expensive motorcar. There is nothing wrong with wanting the finest things that one can afford. It's called aspiration, and although one may not have the skill to use them to the full extent at first, one can grow into them, learning as one goes. By all mean buy a camera that you will outgrow. I know what I prefer.
06-30-2015, 06:03 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
I find this a rather strange viewpoint. I bought both the D800 (now sold) and D810 and I can assure you that I do look critically at the results at the pixel level. It's not because I want to print huge, but because I sometimes crop very heavily, for example, to get a single portrait from a group, or because it is a bird in flight. I haven't had any problems due to lack of sharpness, except when my own technique has been a bit sloppy. I also have an expensive motorcar. There is nothing wrong with wanting the finest things that one can afford. It's called aspiration, and although one may not have the skill to use them to the full extent at first, one can grow into them, learning as one goes. By all mean buy a camera that you will outgrow. I know what I prefer.
Don't take offence. I was merely referring to something that many of us have noticed, which is that there are people who will buy what's considered the best, but lack the skill to use it to advantage and maybe even the will to learn how to do so. I was not saying that everyone, or even a majority fell into that category, in this instance. The reason I pondered this was that some owners had experienced shutter shock, while others had not. It's perfectly reasonable to consider that a portion who hadn't, did not really know what to look for. Maybe they will, should they grow into it, but they may not at this point in time.

As for the rest of your reply, I think most of us like fine things, but not everyone who enjoys the results they can bring in the hands of adept and knowledgable users is capable of reproducing those results themselves. Aspiration is only one aspect in this. For example, I don't aspire to be a classical guitarist, but I don't mind spending a fair amount of money to be able to entertain myself without kidding myself I'll ever be a Segovia. Again, there are enough photos on the internet showing that some people with enough money to buy expensive fast cars can't drive them anywhere their capability without crashing. That doesn't mean that all Ferrari or Porsche owners are egotistical nitwits, but some clearly are.

Just because you've bought a D810 doesn't mean you're David Bailey, any more than it means you're a hopeless photographer, so why take offence at a suggestion that there are some people who fall into the latter category, just because they own the same camera as you? I wasn't bashing all Nikon owners: I know a fair number of them, and I also know that some of them really don't know what they don't know, but the rest aren't like that.
06-30-2015, 06:42 AM   #131
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I wasn't offended, I just found the comment odd.
06-30-2015, 03:37 PM   #132
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Well, I suppose you're right, viewing my comment out of context, but, to summarise, if someone doesn't know about the phenomenon of shutter shock, they wouldn't report it as such. In addition, if they're not plugged into forums like this one then they're unlikely to know about it, and put any blurring down to their own lack of skill (or maybe even blame the camera). It's not a camera that people with limited financial resources would buy, so those who do buy are dedicated photographers or people with enough resources to not critically evaluate such matters, but just want one because they're told it's the best. That's all.
07-02-2015, 10:22 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by RobA_Oz Quote
I wasn't bashing all Nikon owners: I know a fair number of them, and I also know that some of them really don't know what they don't know
that's exactly right... there are a few nikon shooters who noticed the problems: https://www.google.com/search?q=d810+shutter+shock+mirror+slap&oq=d810+shutt...ck+mirror+slap

it looks like nikon improved a lot of the d800 issues with the d810.
07-06-2015, 05:17 PM   #134
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Phil...I'm not sure why you feel it's appropriate to be snippy with a stranger just because this is the internet. Your life though...live it as happy or as snippy as you like. I'll won't be snippy back though, I prefer to be kind even when someone isn't kind back. There's just no need to amp up people just over feeling offended or whatnot...the other option to feeling offended is just being nice anyway, from a sincere regard for others.

To anyone reading this though that wonders about shutter bounce...it's not a sensor issue...the issue has existed for all of shutter technology, as I've known about it for decades, and is why various mirrors have different damping...it's just common sense really? But it's not a "36MP" issue...or a "sensor" issue...if anything it's a camera issue, and every camera has to address it.

Personally...never seen it on the D800e...and I've shot a fair share of images with that camera, and many many other cameras before that. If it were a major "issue" then so many people wouldn't have switched from Canon to Nikon for that sensor's resolution and dynamic range. Great great camera, you Pentax peeps have a lot to look forward to once that sensor or a derivation of it is in a Pentax body. Wish I could have one when it's out, as I loved the digital Pentax I had a few years back.

---------- Post added 07-06-15 at 05:22 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Here's an example of sensor shock with 36mp sony sensors:

This picture and the discussion regarding the D800/e is not from my friend but DPR
Opinion: Did Sony just do the impossible?: Digital Photography Review



Thankfully, Nikon and Sony are taking the issue more seriously than you.
Uhm....if you read the caption below the picture it says:

"Shutter shock plagued the original Sony a7R, and in the example above, which was taken at 1/100s with a Canon 70-200 F2.8L II IS attached via a Metabones Smart Adapter III, is not only obvious, but also reduces the resolution of the camera well below its lower-resolution peers, since cameras like the 24MP a7 at least offer a way to avoid this issue altogether (electronic first curtain)."

That picture you posted as an example of a D800's shutter shock has nothing to do with a Nikon D800.

Last edited by locophoto2015; 07-06-2015 at 05:23 PM.
07-07-2015, 04:08 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by locophoto2015 Quote
Personally...never seen it on the D800e...and I've shot a fair share of images with that camera, and many many other cameras before that..
---------- Post added 07-06-15 at 05:22 PM ----------


If you had gone to the link i gave you, you would have read an excellent discussion by the author on how the increased resolution of sensors, such as the 36mp of the D800 and A7R has increased the chances of seeing this problem - not an exact quote on my part

Uhm....if you read the caption below the picture it says:

"Shutter shock plagued the original Sony a7R, and in the example above, which was taken at 1/100s with a Canon 70-200 F2.8L II IS attached via a Metabones Smart Adapter III, is not only obvious, but also reduces the resolution of the camera well below its lower-resolution peers, since cameras like the 24MP a7 at least offer a way to avoid this issue altogether (electronic first curtain)."

That picture you posted as an example of a D800's shutter shock has nothing to do with a Nikon D800.
If you had read my post, I did not say that the picture of shutter shock was from the D800, I said that the "picture" and the "discussion of the D800E" was in the article i linked. And they were.

If you go to the Thom Hogan site: Nikon Tweaks the D800, Creates D810 | byThom | Thom Hogan

You will find this statement: Live View now utilizes an electronic first curtain shutter, which minimizes shutter shock

with regard to the D810. Nikon also referred to the anti-shutter shock measure in publicity materials on the D750.

Why would they implement anti-shutter shock measures in the D810 and D750 if the original D800e was free of them??????????? Rhetorical question only.

You either don't go to the links folks provide, don't spend time to read them, or don't comprehend them - but the information is out there. I do know my friend wouldn't have given up on an $3000 camera without going thru all the prescribed efforts.
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