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07-06-2015, 05:36 AM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
The question is, do they have any engineers that understand what good video is and if focusing on that, or do they only see video as a "tickbox" feature? I guess it also depends on what priority the market dep set on video.

As most large sensors up until now have not had very good video capabilities, where a smartphone or a small sensor P&S could get the same or better IQ on video (or a small sensor video camera).
Now with BSI, where it is possible to read out the whole sensor area during video capture even on large sensors, the larger sensors will offer much better IQ in video and possibly be far beyond what any small sensor video capable camera can produce.

The quality ratio between different sensor size will soon be the same in video as for photography, which might make it even more important to put priority on video on large sensor cameras, as it can be a important feature that can sell lots of cameras.
It feels like if they don't personally have the expertise to do video well, then they should buy what they need from another company that does it well. Many of the other aspects of an SLR are out sourced anyway.

07-06-2015, 06:44 AM   #197
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It seems to me that Canon has the FF+ stellar video segment locked up tight, and attacking it with the first entry into the market will be tough. IMHO, a DSLR is a less than optimum platform if you are at the level where you would be interested in FF, and you are writing a check that is tough to cash by trying for that level the first time your toe is in the water.
07-06-2015, 08:01 AM - 1 Like   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
It seems to me that Canon has the FF+ stellar video segment locked up tight, and attacking it with the first entry into the market will be tough. IMHO, a DSLR is a less than optimum platform if you are at the level where you would be interested in FF, and you are writing a check that is tough to cash by trying for that level the first time your toe is in the water.
That is not true. Canon has mostly stayed stationary for the past 5 years or so, the only reason why they are still competitive is because of Magic Lantern. Canon itself does not want their DSLRs to be good for video. For Canon it makes much more sense to sell Cinema EOS cameras, which cost significantly more, despite using APS-C sensors.

The real competitors are Sony, which has good image quality, but their color science seems a bit off (their videos need lots of massaging, something that Pentax does better IMHO), and usability perhaps could be better. Olympus, which does stabilization really well, and has improved a lot in recent times. Panasonic, which has always been great at video and offered good value for money. Samsung, who have a ton of resources and created an absolute beast of a processor, combined with a very fast sensor and a firmware development team that constantly listens to consumer demand and releases new updates with new features. And finally Nikon, who manage to get better quality out of more or less the same hardware that Pentax uses, even if their cameras are a bit basic otherwise.

What Pentax might be able to do to acquire engineering expertise is try to hire some Magic Lantern people. That would a) be great for marketing, Magic Lantern is a big name in the video community, thus instantly drawing attention to Pentax, and b) they know a lot about video and firmware development, and what the semi-professional/professional market needs (usually firmware functions). The salaries for a few programmers should hopefully be paid for by the increase in sales that would create.

Hopefully the improvements for video will also make the cameras better for stills.
07-06-2015, 07:03 PM   #199
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Sony's most competitive models are not really DSLRs. (Missing the "reflex") If you ask someone who is going to use a DSLR with a reflex mirror for quality video what they are using, it is usually a Canon, but using a camera whose primary viewfinder must be locked away is inherently less than ideal.

If Pentax wanted to ditch the DSLR format and go mirrorless, ....


Last edited by GeneV; 07-06-2015 at 07:22 PM.
07-12-2015, 12:43 AM   #200
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question :
is it wise to use and wear your precious FF sensor that almost costs short of the camera‘s price for video? I mean if you have a $3000 dslr dedicated for high quality stills and capable of recording good videos would you wear your sensor for video ? I you ask me I won t. I bought my k5 because i want to learn photography not videography and if i want to become one ill buy a cam designed and intended for video. adding video on dslr is cute and trivial but missing one wont hurt a photo entusiast. Keeping in mind that this thread is about CHEAP ff cam and not the pricey featured dslr. yes video is just a software based feature but a good video wont happen in a ff sensor with a cheap and so so processing engine.
07-12-2015, 02:02 AM   #201
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just keep features for aiding stills. ill trade the video of k5 for focus peaking.
07-12-2015, 02:12 AM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lakai Quote
question :
is it wise to use and wear your precious FF sensor that almost costs short of the camera‘s price for video? I mean if you have a $3000 dslr dedicated for high quality stills and capable of recording good videos would you wear your sensor for video ? I you ask me I won t. I bought my k5 because i want to learn photography not videography and if i want to become one ill buy a cam designed and intended for video. adding video on dslr is cute and trivial but missing one wont hurt a photo entusiast. Keeping in mind that this thread is about CHEAP ff cam and not the pricey featured dslr. yes video is just a software based feature but a good video wont happen in a ff sensor with a cheap and so so processing engine.
You won't wear the sensor out when recording. At the very most you wear out the battery, but mine is in great shape, despite being drained frequently with video.

Dedicated video cameras with the quality and control over the image that DSLRs have cost 10k and more, and that is for APS-C. I don't think there exists a professional FF video camera. So video is a very valid option. Especially for those who want to do both... carrying 2 cameras seems unnecessary. A photo journalist who also has to grab a video for his companies website won't be taking out another camera. He'll flick a switch.

You are right that good processing is necessary, but that will come anyway as the processors are getting better and better. It is also important for good still performance. And good quality (not super high frame rates etc.) is possible with a new Nikon, even their entry level DSLRs. Nikon uses more or less the same CPUs as Pentax. All that would be nice would be for Pentax to make full use of the existing hardware. If it means MJPEG for the highest quality setting because the h264 implementation isn't good enough, so be it. Just don't hold back anything because it might confuse users, or because there may be some drawback to it. If they did the same on the stills side there'd be no raw, no manual settings, no ISO above 800, ...

And where is the relation to cheap cameras? The more people buy the camera, the cheaper it gets. Development cost gets spread out, parts get cheaper, ... and it is the video world that is more likely to switch brands because a competing product is better. Also it just belongs on a professional (non MF) camera, as some professionals need to do both.

Focus peaking is more of a video feature. It relies on the camera being able to record video and the processor being able to process it.
07-12-2015, 02:13 AM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lakai Quote
question :
is it wise to use and wear your precious FF sensor that almost costs short of the camera‘s price for video? I mean if you have a $3000 dslr dedicated for high quality stills and capable of recording good videos would you wear your sensor for video ?
I don't think you put much wear on the sensor by recoding video. If that would be the case then mirrorless camera would have a high failure rate as they use video feed for the EVF.

It's usually mechanical part in cameras that fail first (shutter, mirror mechanism, buttons...), but theses things do not wear more by a 30 minute video than a 1/8000s picture. In normal use I would say that a DSLR would wear out faster used for images than for video, as shutter count would be much lower when used for video.

If a sensor fails in a camera it's often a manufacturing defect and will fail early.


Last edited by Fogel70; 07-12-2015 at 02:18 AM.
07-12-2015, 02:45 AM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by Lakai Quote
question :
is it wise to use and wear your precious FF sensor that almost costs short of the camera‘s price for video? I mean if you have a $3000 dslr dedicated for high quality stills and capable of recording good videos would you wear your sensor for video ? I you ask me I won t. I bought my k5 because i want to learn photography not videography and if i want to become one ill buy a cam designed and intended for video. adding video on dslr is cute and trivial but missing one wont hurt a photo entusiast. Keeping in mind that this thread is about CHEAP ff cam and not the pricey featured dslr. yes video is just a software based feature but a good video wont happen in a ff sensor with a cheap and so so processing engine.
Why are you worried about that? I have owned a K-01 for several years and it only functions in live view mode and it works fine. The only issue might have is the sensor getting too hot, in which case the camera will shut it down, but it certainly doesn't wear the sensor out.
07-12-2015, 07:58 AM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Why are you worried about that? I have owned a K-01 for several years and it only functions in live view mode and it works fine. The only issue might have is the sensor getting too hot, in which case the camera will shut it down, but it certainly doesn't wear the sensor out.
Not the video itself but indeed, temperature needs to be taken care of properly and proper Video implementation in a DSLR may dictate stronger cooling measures. But said already, most mirrorless can do so. The 2 cents question is: how much more does an FF sensor consume if Sony usual way (subsampling) or Canon/panasonic way (if I son't say idiocies which means supersampling).
07-12-2015, 10:01 AM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Not the video itself but indeed, temperature needs to be taken care of properly and proper Video implementation in a DSLR may dictate stronger cooling measures. But said already, most mirrorless can do so. The 2 cents question is: how much more does an FF sensor consume if Sony usual way (subsampling) or Canon/panasonic way (if I son't say idiocies which means supersampling).
Better cooling measures --> Long exposures (think astrophotographers) won't be as noisy. Good for stills shooters, isn't it?
07-12-2015, 11:08 AM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
What Pentax might be able to do to acquire engineering expertise is try to hire some Magic Lantern people. That would a) be great for marketing, Magic Lantern is a big name in the video community, thus instantly drawing attention to Pentax, and b) they know a lot about video and firmware development, and what the semi-professional/professional market needs (usually firmware functions)
Could Ricoh simply pay (License) Magic Lantern to do for them what they do for Canon?
07-12-2015, 11:14 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Could Ricoh simply pay (License) Magic Lantern to do for them what they do for Canon?
The Canon hardware is very different from Ricoh hardware. And they may not be legally able to give access to the source code of the firmware and processor details. But hiring some developers should fix that, they get to sign a NDA and can properly work on the firmware, as part of the firmware team. IIRC Magic Lantern also improves the stills side of the cameras... so there could be benefits there too.

The question is if they can even hire these people, but it could be worth a try.
07-12-2015, 11:34 AM - 1 Like   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
The Canon hardware is very different from Ricoh hardware. And they may not be legally able to give access to the source code of the firmware and processor details. But hiring some developers should fix that, they get to sign a NDA and can properly work on the firmware, as part of the firmware team. IIRC Magic Lantern also improves the stills side of the cameras... so there could be benefits there too.

The question is if they can even hire these people, but it could be worth a try.
What I meant by 'do for them what they did for Canon' is just what you are suggesting they hire away engineers to do (which might not be as easy as it sounds what with NDA's and 'Garden Period' Agreements) - but on a licensed basis. Anything necessary such as NDA's and the like could certainly be stated in the 'For Hire' contract.
07-12-2015, 12:57 PM   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
Better cooling measures --> Long exposures (think astrophotographers) won't be as noisy. Good for stills shooters, isn't it?
Yes but pretty bad for space constraints.
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