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06-13-2015, 08:37 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
I'd like to see a line of cameras, including both.
I'd like to see a drink chiller hotshoe accessory and a range of Pentax brand cheeses.

06-13-2015, 08:49 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by MD Optofonik Quote
Hmmm. I'm going to go in a different direction and suggest that Pentax make the best high end professional FF DSLR that money can buy and get back in the game.
QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
I'd like to see a line of cameras, including both.
Start with a D810 beater. Then a D750 beater. K-3 replacement will be a better camera than a D610 anyway, so let the other guys fight over the low-margin price point. Make great lenses instead.

High-end SLR's and lenses have always been professional tools, aspirational enthusiast equipment and toys for the upper middle class. K1000 was an outlier and won't ever be repeated.
06-13-2015, 11:50 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Even better - Pentax introduces a Leica M-mount FF. Plenty of legacy glass available, and short enough flange focal distance that many lenses could be easily adapted.
+1

Ricoh already did it for APS-C:

GXR Mount A12 Leica M Mount - Ricoh GXR Modules - Pentax Camera Reviews and Specifications
06-13-2015, 11:53 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
How do we know Blackmagic Design's profit margins are? And, again, they had to do everything from scratch, literally.
Their magins are probably quite high, as they selling a camera with a sensor less than a 1/3 of the size of an FF sensor for $2000. To save R&D cost they use existing mounts, so they did not have to design large part of the system from scratch. And they do not need to design lenses.

So they have much higher profit margin than if Ricoh would sell a much more complex camera design with much more expensive parts inside for half that price.

QuoteQuote:
I think there are there enthusiast photographers than the are professional filmmakers.

I literally don't need a million frames per second (or even five), blazing autofocus or 42 MP, and the buffer to go with it. I just want great ergonomics, great dynamic range, a 24x36 sensor, and a K mount.
The problem is that almost every enthusiast have their own unique demands on the camera, so they either release 10000 different models so all user can get their own custom made camera with only the features they want, or the they design one camera that covers as many uses requirements as possible, and can be released at a reasonable price. Most users will never use all features in the camera, but that is normally not a problem as long as the features can be disabled.

Edit: I believe the first Pentax FF DSLR will be a high specification model, with lower specified model coming later on.


Last edited by Fogel70; 06-14-2015 at 01:11 AM.
06-14-2015, 03:08 AM - 1 Like   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
We have no idea how it will sell because we really don't know how good or bad it will be or how much it will cost. There is a huge amount of technology available that could be implemented in this camera. If the camera has amazing AF and the new 42MP Sony sensor and Ricoh gets the glass right, they will sell all they can make at $3,000 each. I think the FF will have very little in common with the K-3II from a technology point.

New Sensor - 42MP BSI
New Image Processor
New AF system - SAFOX is dead.
Some type of OVF overlay or projection (Hybrid OVF)
WiFi
UHS-II cards
USB-C support
Probably a new battery
4K internal
APS-C crop mode
Buying the whole imaging system (both sensor and processing stuff) from Sony would make a lot of that doable. It would be a shame to buy a fab new sensor from Sony then have the whole thing bottlenecked by a subpar processor because Fujitsu have nothing to take full advantage of it.

Pentax aimed very high with the 645z and it paid off very well. They got the sales and they were favourably reassessed by opinion-formers generally after years of "Pentax Who?". I guess that may be something of a hint about how they intend to tackle FF, at least to begin with. Aiming low puts Pentax right where Canonikon et al are strongest, in the place where volume sales and discounts matter.
06-14-2015, 03:18 AM - 1 Like   #81
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^^^ Gets it.

EDIT: I still don't think Pentax has the production capacity to make a cheaper. high-volume FF alongside the APSc offerings and 645z, lenses and a few accessories. From a production standpoint at this time a lower volume, higher-margin excellent camera makes a lot more sense when rebuilding the company over the long term.

Canon and especially Nikon presently suffer from carrying unused production capacity. Pentax doesn't.
06-14-2015, 07:17 AM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
^^^ Gets it.

EDIT: I still don't think Pentax has the production capacity to make a cheaper. high-volume FF alongside the APSc offerings and 645z, lenses and a few accessories. From a production standpoint at this time a lower volume, higher-margin excellent camera makes a lot more sense when rebuilding the company over the long term.
The 42MP BSI with DRAM built on to the sensor is probably a pretty expensive sensor to produce compared to the older thick CMOS sensors. I think Ricoh needs to start at the top with the best camera they can make and let the technology trickle down over the next several years to less expensive bodies. With the launch of $2,400 lenses I think it makes sense that Ricoh is planning a $3,000 +/- body. This needs to be a body with a 3 year product cycle, so it needs to have the technology to be relevant in the market for the next 3 years.

Ricoh has filed several patents for a new AF system, hybrid OVF, & switchable mirror. I think we will see some if not all of these in the FF body.
USB 3.0 or USB-C. USB-C would be great for those who tether.
WiFi built into the body.
UHS-II card support
4K
7fps

All of this technology is here today. Ricoh just as to implement it and they have a D810/5D killer. 3 years ago a FF version of the K-3 would have shaken up the market. Today that wouldn't even get reviewed by the B-list internet crowd. From a marketing standpoint it would be awful even though it would be a great camera.
06-14-2015, 07:44 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The 42MP BSI with DRAM built on to the sensor is probably a pretty expensive sensor to produce compared to the older thick CMOS sensors. I think Ricoh needs to start at the top with the best camera they can make and let the technology trickle down over the next several years to less expensive bodies. With the launch of $2,400 lenses I think it makes sense that Ricoh is planning a $3,000 +/- body. This needs to be a body with a 3 year product cycle, so it needs to have the technology to be relevant in the market for the next 3 years.

Ricoh has filed several patents for a new AF system, hybrid OVF, & switchable mirror. I think we will see some if not all of these in the FF body.
USB 3.0 or USB-C. USB-C would be great for those who tether.
WiFi built into the body.
UHS-II card support
4K
7fps

All of this technology is here today. Ricoh just as to implement it and they have a D810/5D killer. 3 years ago a FF version of the K-3 would have shaken up the market. Today that wouldn't even get reviewed by the B-list internet crowd. From a marketing standpoint it would be awful even though it would be a great camera.
3000$ for a ff camera may influnce at 645MF sales . From now untill the releasing time things are changeing on technology and prices.

06-14-2015, 08:00 AM   #84
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K1000 was not truly inexpensive, and it was stripped to make it cheap

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
S
High-end SLR's and lenses have always been professional tools, aspirational enthusiast equipment and toys for the upper middle class. K1000 was an outlier and won't ever be repeated.
I don't know, a K1000 + 50 lens kit was $299 in 1976, which is $1245 in today's dollars. That's quite a bit more than say a K50 kit.

Entry-level SLR is a bit cheaper than it was then.

Also, I don't think the K1000 was kept simple out of 'purity', it was kept simple just to keep prices down, at least initially. They didn't have the global manufacturing genie fully out of the bottle yet then, they had to do it the old fashioned way - leave stuff out, strip it down.
06-14-2015, 08:03 AM - 1 Like   #85
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Ya, I agree... stripping makes you cheap, no matter how much they pay you... wait, you're talking about some other kind of stripping. OK then, carry on.
06-14-2015, 08:10 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
.. It would be a shame to buy a fab new sensor from Sony then have the whole thing bottlenecked by a subpar processor because Fujitsu have nothing to take full advantage of it. .
Couple things here that I have doubts about - first, what Fujitsu would need to deal with after the ADC stage would be nothing really new. Handling increasing numbers of MP just calls for a ramp-up, which they know how to do, as long as we're not really hitting a threshold they can't handle (doubtful, IMO.)

Second, its not like Fujitsu or any IC/ASIC manufacturer in the chain is blind, deaf and dumb - they know what's coming, or can guess, and they will have products ready to stay in the game. They want to ship with every unit.

Tl;dr : Fujitsu will not be a bottleneck.
06-14-2015, 10:20 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by zmohie Quote
posted this at dpr and i thought it may discuss her
>>>>
Instead of the unbenefit attempt of challenging nikon and cannon in the full frame sector. I suggest releasing a cheap full frame with a price that doesn't exceed 1000$ without the following common features :
1- No video.
2- No flash.
3- No built-in GPS.
4- No WiFi
5- No touch screen
6- No flipped screen
7- No PS.

Just put 24mp sensor inside a body that has Pentax standard and this includes OV.
I think a camera with that price would be the most suitable to compete with the market and will attract many people from other brands. It would also make Pentax sell more lenses.
Moreover, releasing this camera soon will give Pentax the time to release a camera full of new technology. I think Pentax has to go this way before Sony. It would also save time and money for Pentax. Your thoughts ..? Or am I dreaming ..?



I'd be good with that, including the lack of auto-focus someone mentioned after, except that I want a 42mp sensor. The K1000 was simple, but one could load it with Kodachrome 25.


I'd also be good with no mirror, as long as liveview is well executed.

Last edited by civiletti; 06-14-2015 at 10:21 AM. Reason: add
06-14-2015, 11:02 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
We have no idea how it will sell because we really don't know how good or bad it will be or how much it will cost. There is a huge amount of technology available that could be implemented in this camera. If the camera has amazing AF and the new 42MP Sony sensor and Ricoh gets the glass right, they will sell all they can make at $3,000 each. I think the FF will have very little in common with the K-3II from a technology point.

New Sensor - 42MP BSI
New Image Processor
New AF system - SAFOX is dead.
Some type of OVF overlay or projection (Hybrid OVF)
WiFi
UHS-II cards
USB-C support
Probably a new battery
4K internal
APS-C crop mode
How ever great this camera sound, I don't think Ricoh can bring this to the market this year.
06-14-2015, 11:54 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Couple things here that I have doubts about - first, what Fujitsu would need to deal with after the ADC stage would be nothing really new. Handling increasing numbers of MP just calls for a ramp-up, which they know how to do, as long as we're not really hitting a threshold they can't handle (doubtful, IMO.)

Second, its not like Fujitsu or any IC/ASIC manufacturer in the chain is blind, deaf and dumb - they know what's coming, or can guess, and they will have products ready to stay in the game. They want to ship with every unit.

Tl;dr : Fujitsu will not be a bottleneck.
IMHO, Ricoh need to find a way of breaking free of Nikon. They will always be the poor relative for as long as they go on using almost the same system. Ditching Fujitsu in favour of something more cutting edge might be a way to achieve that if at the same time Ricoh can do a deal that shuts out Nikon from access to the same stuff. Perhaps a discreet alliance or sharing deal of some kind with Sony or AN Other. Otherwise, what is likely to happen is a D820 a few months after Pentax launch their new flagship with everything Pentax has and more, because Nikon has Expeed and Pentax doesn't. As the camera market shrinks, I would think that some players grouping together in alliances to shut out others is more rather than less likely. The days when there was always enough pie for everyone are well and truly gone.
06-14-2015, 11:55 AM - 2 Likes   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
I don't think Ricoh can bring this to the market this year.
Sept/Oct is a customary release period for a lot of past Pentax DSLR's (K-x, K-r, K-5, K-5II, K-3). Fingers crossed Ricoh can do it on that schedule in 2015.

2016 is certainly a possibility (Photokina Sept 2016?), but delaying their FF release past 2015 would lose Pentax a lot of business, I think.
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