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06-25-2015, 01:09 AM   #121
ebk
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for me it is clear:
Pentax/Ricoh isn't able to make a simple dslr!!
like the mx/k1000.

06-25-2015, 03:10 AM   #122
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making a fullframe cam and cripple it like that it's clear it makes absolutely no sense for Ricoh. Imagine a car company putting resources to get a 500-HP Ferrari motor inside a cheap Fiat 500. Maybe you have one or two buyes who buy just for fun or for the sake of owning a car with that motor, but the others will decide on buying either a cheap normal Fiat500 or a real Ferrari (or something inbetween)
06-25-2015, 03:15 AM - 1 Like   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by ebk Quote
for me it is clear:
Pentax/Ricoh isn't able to make a simple dslr!!
like the mx/k1000.
For me it is clear as well: Ricoh/Pentax intends to make money.

Full frame is a risk. If the camera doesn't have a big enough audience, whether it is too high end or has features that underperform the competition, it will be a failure. At this point, I think Pentax has decided that they are planning to target the pro market. That means a more expensive (but well featured) body and some high end (but big and expensive) lenses to follow.

I for one am glad they are going this route, as I prefer to have the ability to purchase high end glass, even if I have to save awhile for it, as compared to Hoyas pattern of releasing weather resistant versions of existing lenses or, new consumer zooms.
06-25-2015, 03:25 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by ebk Quote
for me it is clear:
Pentax/Ricoh isn't able to make a simple dslr!!
like the mx/k1000.
You are right, they cannot make a simple DSLR on the same level of simplicity as an MX/K1000. That is impossible for anyone, because digital adds complexity.
OTOH, they are also unwilling to cripple a DSLR in an extreme "retro" style, because those few requesting them to do that would not pay for it (Leica prices).

06-25-2015, 05:02 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
*ist IS worth $500.
Kerrisdale Cameras sells them for $90. And they sit there for bloody ever. But, If you think they're worth $500, I'll happily buy those and sell them to you for JUST $400. Good deal, right?


As for this thread, we have a bunch of folk who don't seem to get what's what at the moment. We just saw a successful kickstarter for a $9 computer and Lomography Has secured their second Petzval Lens success. Mass marketing success, they are not, but they are still good signs for an overall viability of this concept. Electronics get less expensive with each iteration.

That said, maybe I should take this to Lomography and Zenit, and make the Zenit-E rise from the grave as a digital instead, they seem more willing to try things...
06-25-2015, 07:03 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by infoomatic Quote
making a fullframe cam and cripple it like that it's clear it makes absolutely no sense for Ricoh. Imagine a car company putting resources to get a 500-HP Ferrari motor inside a cheap Fiat 500. Maybe you have one or two buyes who buy just for fun or for the sake of owning a car with that motor, but the others will decide on buying either a cheap normal Fiat500 or a real Ferrari (or something inbetween)
For 72.999 euro you can have the Abarth 695 biposto full options............
06-25-2015, 07:32 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by npc Quote
A cheap FF is what the expensive FF will be after an year or two on the market.
Exactly. (And I stated the same earlier in the thread too)

Just wait and the price will come down.. so long as technology continues to improve (they don't pull a Canon and get stagnant).

Then you'll have your cheap FF. We all will.
06-25-2015, 07:48 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Exactly. (And I stated the same earlier in the thread too)

Just wait and the price will come down.. so long as technology continues to improve (they don't pull a Canon and get stagnant).

Then you'll have your cheap FF. We all will.
It feels like cameras at the D800 level and above maintain price pretty well. It is the lower end full frame cameras - D600 and 6D that have seen prices drop. Not sure why the difference is there, but it certainly is.

06-25-2015, 09:21 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It feels like cameras at the D800 level and above maintain price pretty well. It is the lower end full frame cameras - D600 and 6D that have seen prices drop. Not sure why the difference is there, but it certainly is.
D800 was announced for something like $3000 - now you can get an used one for around $1300 - and this is still a high-end FF camera and not obsolete technology by any means.
Even a 645D you can probably find for below 3000 . But yes, the value of the lower end ones drops faster.
06-25-2015, 09:35 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by npc Quote
D800 was announced for something like $3000 - now you can get an used one for around $1300 - and this is still a high-end FF camera and not obsolete technology by any means.
Even a 645D you can probably find for below 3000 . But yes, the value of the lower end ones drops faster.
I'm still trying to justify to myself an upgade of my D800
06-25-2015, 10:24 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by infoomatic Quote
making a fullframe cam and cripple it like that it's clear it makes absolutely no sense for Ricoh. Imagine a car company putting resources to get a 500-HP Ferrari motor inside a cheap Fiat 500. Maybe you have one or two buyes who buy just for fun or for the sake of owning a car with that motor, but the others will decide on buying either a cheap normal Fiat500 or a real Ferrari (or something inbetween)
There is a Lamborghini powered Fiat 500, and oh my god would I love to have it. I dont think it is the right analogy though. More like a SUV or van that only has 1 seat, to save cost (because they don't need more seats... where what they really should buy is a classic 2 seater roadster (aka film camera). Nevermind that having only 1 seat barely reduces the price, apart from it reducing appeal so much that the manufacturer has to sell it at a very low price.
06-25-2015, 10:35 AM - 1 Like   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You are right, they cannot make a simple DSLR on the same level of simplicity as an MX/K1000. That is impossible for anyone, because digital adds complexity.
OTOH, they are also unwilling to cripple a DSLR in an extreme "retro" style, because those few requesting them to do that would not pay for it (Leica prices).
Right - simple or not - they still need all the electronics to read the sensor, process the data and save it to the sd card - if you go too cheap on these - the camera becomes too slow and annoying to use and everyone will hate it. Sort of like how Sigma cameras are right now (and they are still far from cheap!). Not to mention everyone's beloved mechanical dials and buttons - these just add costs and will have to be stripped to point-and-shoot camera level.

But I don't think it is fair to compare the proposed "cheap" ff camera from ricoh to what leica does. Leica cameras are not mean to be cheap but meant to be exclusive. Those without LCD, monochrome, etc might cost more to produce or might cost less at the end (they are not exactly mass-produced, even the standard editions), but they will definately be priced higher just to emphasize on that exclusivness.

If Ricoh wants to play in that league they need to do a lot more than remove AF so you can enjoy the ultimate experience of focusing your screw drive lenses manually.
It needs to be not cheap but something luxury that would strike a note with the few remaining nostalgic film-era photographers to spend their retirement savings on it... you know, not like painted over "gunmetal". Think something like digital LX kit with the 3 limiteds fitted into SMC-A style manual focus body (so they can still save on the coupler ).
Beyond the pentax brand I think Ricoh GR FF is someting that they will be crazy not to do.
06-25-2015, 12:27 PM   #133
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I think it's fair to compare it to Leica, as this imaginary "digital MX" is supposed to be even more stripped down than a Leica. Leica, by the way, is going in the opposite direction - slowly adding modern features (like LV and video).
It's not comparing actually, but stating that such a camera would be well outside the normal price envelope (and obviously not downwards). Things like uselessly stripping down features (as opposed to implementing cheap features to drive down cost) and adding pieces of wood and real leather will make the camera more niche than the 645z, and raise the price significantly.
And regarding your point - Ricoh cannot ask for Leica prices - my answer is not that Ricoh could do it cheaper, but that it won't do it at all: it's Leica prices or nothing. IMO.

A more reasonable alternative would be to go for retro design instead of a true retro camera; something like the Df. Like with Nikon, this should raise the price a bit but still remain affordable. Some marketing prowess is still needed... it's quite risky IMO.
06-25-2015, 12:35 PM   #134
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PENTAX 645Z is "cheap" among MF cameras

Hope they can make the same splash in FF.
06-25-2015, 12:55 PM - 1 Like   #135
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They can't. It's not the same. It's not the same competing with an inefficient Hasselblad or PhaseOne, or competing with the much higher volume Canon/Nikon, and money-wasting Sony.
The 645z's price is explained by circumstances unavailable on the small format market: higher volumes, being the only ones able to share R&D/production facilities/distribution network etc with a much higher volume product line.
Instead of saying the 645z is much cheaper I would say, the competition is so much more expensive.

Last edited by Kunzite; 06-25-2015 at 01:03 PM.
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