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12-28-2015, 07:58 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by 2351HD Quote
why can we not have a full frame camera body like a future K1 that has an EVF rather than an OVF?
Because the whole point of going EVF is to get rid of the mirror - which is one of the primary size constraints of SLRs, get rid of the mirror and the length of the K mount flange becomes redundant. Therefore, if the K1 was equipped with an EVF there would be no point in holding onto the K mount flange, get rid of that, and you would basically have a Sony A7xx clone.

Take a lesson from Biology: Clones do not give rise to innovation and change, they are just copies. Copies that cannot adapt in response to a changing and shifting marketplace.


Last edited by Digitalis; 12-28-2015 at 08:04 PM.
12-28-2015, 08:20 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Really? I think that is going a bit far.
That's what I think. Really.

We've seen video and still approaching each other. But both remain rather separate species and, e.g., the still camera species actually benefits from OVF.

The main reason for both to remain separate is image quality, I think. Only very recently did a full frame still camera emerge with leading video quality: the A7sII. And video cameras could never touch still quality.

I believe, the separation by image quality disappears with full frame 8k video.

And I predict that beyond this point, the distinction between motion and still will be a thing of the past, becoming an artistic style in post production rather than a technology.

IMHO, that's the next big thing. Mirrorless is not, although full frame 8k video will be mirrorless of course.
12-28-2015, 09:01 PM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Because the whole point of going EVF is to get rid of the mirror
losing the mirror is simply a byproduct of superior innovation and manufacturing cost savings.

what is gained with an evf is so much greater than what has ever existed with a mirror, that it's an inevitable change... for example:

"...due to the mirrored DSLR design and the lack of an electronic first curtain in viewfinder shooting, the 5DS/R cameras cannot always achieve the entirely vibration-free images Sony's comparable camera, the a7R II, can provide. Some sharpness cost still remains in typical shooting at longer focal lengths, but the good news is that it's limited to affecting a relatively narrow range of shutter speeds, and Canon provides workarounds that mitigate the sharpness cost significantly." In Fine Detail: Canon EOS 5DS / 5DS R In-Depth Review: Digital Photography Review

so canon wasted a bunch of engineering $$$ over legacy mirror problems that don't exist on the a7rii, because the a7rii has usable efcs up to 1/1000th, in all the relevant shooting scenarios i can think of; there is zero shutter vibration... efcs implementation on ovf cameras is crippled, it's limited to things like mirror-up only mode.

guess who pays the overhead for all of that canon engineering...

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Therefore, if the K1 was equipped with an EVF there would be no point in holding onto the K mount flange, get rid of that, and you would basically have a Sony A7xx clone.

Take a lesson from Biology: Clones do not give rise to innovation and change, they are just copies. Copies that cannot adapt in response to a changing and shifting marketplace.
i'd suggest that you take a lesson in biology: "species become extinct when they are no longer able to survive in changing conditions or against superior competition." ...film cameras, for example.

---------- Post added 12-28-15 at 08:23 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
That's what I think. Really.

We've seen video and still approaching each other. But both remain rather separate species and, e.g., the still camera species actually benefits from OVF.
the only benefit that i know of with an ovf is that it doesn't take any battery power... which is a tradeoff that most people are more than willing to make.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I believe, the separation by image quality disappears with full frame 8k video.
that is far from being practical, at this point in time.

video by definition must operate within a very narrow range of shutter speeds... generally 1/60th or 1/120th in north america; so pulling stills from video that's shot for video purposes is not realistic, regardless of the resolution.

ignoring that, the bandwidth demands for a ff sensor recording raw files at 30fps would be very high, to say the least.
12-28-2015, 09:24 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
losing the mirror is simply a byproduct of superior innovation and manufacturing cost savings.
to put it plainly, it is a way of forcing users to upgrade, while allowing manufacturers to save production costs by mechanically reducing cameras. When all is said and done: mirrorless systems aren't inherently superior to SLRs - I know, I use both commercially.

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
he 5DS/R cameras cannot always achieve the entirely vibration-free images Sony's comparable camera, the a7R II, can provide
With correct technique and proper stabilization the 5DSR can produce image quality that is perfectly usable, despite your opinions.

---------- Post added 12-29-15 at 03:06 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
We've seen video and still approaching each other. But both remain rather separate species
Separate they will remain. Video cannot (yet) match the output of the 645Z or the Phase one IQ180. Grabbing stills might be fine for consumer and amateur production purposes, but video will NEVER supplant stills - not in the commercial realm. There is also the issue of Longevity - a selenium toned B&W print will last approximately 200 years, Laserdisc,VHS and Betamax are completely obsolete, and the hardware to view them is no longer in production. A photographic print- if framed and properly displayed can be enjoyed for centuries.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I predict that beyond this point, the distinction between motion and still will be a thing of the past, becoming an artistic style in post production rather than a technology.
I respectfully disagree, The primary reason for this is that still cameras have superior motion stopping capability and ability to be used with compact, energy efficient lighting. Lighting for video is very wasteful in terms of energy usage, also to meet the capture speed and luminous output of flash with continuous lighting, you have to use very high powered HMI lights which means increased heat and energy usage, this also means there is additional bulk and the need to meet power requirements. Also for faster capture rates you need more light to keep the exposure levels up, 60FPS requires less light than 240FPS and so on.


Last edited by Digitalis; 12-28-2015 at 11:39 PM.
12-28-2015, 09:45 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
to put it plainly, it is a way of forcing users to upgrade, while allowing manufacturers to save production costs by mechanically reducing cameras.
a7rii is $3,200
5dsr is $3,600

forced? most users are glad to upgrade to a superior camera that costs less.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
When all is said and done: mirrorless systems aren't inherently superior to SLRs - I know, I use both commercially.
well, people either understand the advantages of zero shutter shock, zero mirror vibration, wysiwyg evf, etc., or they don't :-)

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
With correct technique and proper stabilization the 5DSR can produce image quality that is perfectly usable.
cellphones produce images that are "perfectly usable"
12-28-2015, 09:54 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
cellphones produce images that are "perfectly usable"
For you perhaps.

QuoteOriginally posted by osv Quote
most users are glad to upgrade to a superior camera that costs less.
I would rather buy the Canon, and have access to a wide range of natively supported AF lenses with professional support services that I can trust rather than deal with SONY, and anything related to what they see as the future of photography. They basically killed Minolta.
12-28-2015, 09:55 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
With correct technique and proper stabilization the 5DSR can produce image quality that is perfectly usable.
for you perhaps.
12-28-2015, 10:00 PM   #38
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well played.

12-28-2015, 10:52 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Because the whole point of going EVF is to get rid of the mirror - which is one of the primary size constraints of SLRs, get rid of the mirror and the length of the K mount flange becomes redundant.
I'm not sure getting rid of the mirror box is without disadvantages:
  1. Micro-lenses alleviate the problem but when registration distances are short then incident angles of light rays on the sensor become oblique, in particular for wide-angle lenses. I wonder what protagonists of mirrorless systems don't tell us about the challenges for lens design such short registration distances may cause.
  2. Very small cameras have their use cases but I find handling longer and heavier glass easier with a body that is more substantial than an A7RII, for instance. I don't see the need to shave off some of the body depth, and really don't like the artificial facsimile of reality an EVF provides.
12-28-2015, 11:01 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
And I predict that beyond this point, the distinction between motion and still will be a thing of the past, becoming an artistic style in post production rather than a technology.
Digitalis already provided a number of good counterarguments; I'd like to add another:

Capturing a moment is an art-form that many enjoy practising at the scene, not in post-production. I do not think that this preference will die because there is a difference between experiencing a scene with one's own eyes and occasionally using a still camera to capture moments versus continuously filming, thus getting a second-hand experience, and what's worse (AFAIC), through an EVF.

I believe the different form factors between still cameras and video cameras are justified because of their different usage paradigms. I think too much of a convergence (unless it is really cleverly done) would be harmful to at least one of the classic usage modes.
12-28-2015, 11:15 PM   #41
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I don't care how crop mode works. I will always keep a crop body for my crop lenses.
12-28-2015, 11:59 PM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
I would rather buy the Canon, and have access to a wide range of natively supported AF lenses with professional support services that I can trust rather than deal with SONY, and anything related to what they see as the future of photography. They basically killed Minolta.
yes, unfortunately, here in the states sony uses the same repair facility that pentax does, and we all know how well that's going.

wrt "natively supported"... canon doesn't have eye focus capability on any of it's cameras, but some canon lenses and some sony lenses do eye focus on the a7rii bodies.

"In fact, the system can be so accurate as to find and track not just a face, but the eyes within a face. High speed readout means it can now do this continuously. And on-sensor phase-detect means the camera doesn't suffer from the inaccuracies dedicated phase-detect modules in DSLRs are prone to.

Oh, and it can even do some of this with A-mount Sony glass, and Canon lenses as well, via adapters.*"
Analysis: Sony a7R II and RX100 IV autofocus systems: Digital Photography Review
12-29-2015, 02:10 AM   #43
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Wow, Sony propaganda on a Pentax forum... how I missed that!

While in some professional areas stills and video might merge (not sure about 2020 though), here's another good reason that won't be generally true: you don't always want to shoot at 1/60 or whatever the frame rate for video. Sure, there could be some algorithms of combining separate frames into one, but that's still restrictive.
Not to mention the sheer increase in data volume, if the hardware can cope with that. Which means large, expensive storage solutions with power hungry processing systems requiring active cooling. And you'd still only get, perhaps, an image similar to what a D810 can get you now.
12-29-2015, 03:20 AM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Separate they will remain. ...
QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
...I think too much of a convergence (unless it is really cleverly done) would be harmful to at least one of the classic usage modes.
You are both correct, maybe.
However and I cannot explain why, it made click in my head and I now see the future as I described.

Interestingly, from a technological point of view, it should happen last (or never) in the studio. But I see convergence discussed by studio photographers more than by anybody else. Probably because of artistic pressure to produce unique images and because some of them can afford a RED already today.

I recently discussed with Hans Werner Briese (known for the famous Briese lights). He pointed out to me that about 90% of his customers (which are studios) are now generating most of their revenue from movie. It was like 10% 10 years ago.

So yes, change is happening. But what I REALLY wanted to say above: the revolution isn't mirrorless per se. It is something else and then I went forward to say what.

P.S.
Just to give you an idea of what I see: Imagine studio strobes be triggered individually per frame. You then can set the balance, both luminosity and color, between strobes in post. Also, it allows for automated merging with a background. It works in 30fps, it doesn't in 5 or 10fps (I tried). You can use it outdoor to overshoot the sun with weak strobes too (subtract the sun).

Or temporal noise reduction, wide angle effects from stitching, automatic selection of sharpest (both focus and motion blur), automatic selection of open eye groups, of max. jump height, background / foreground animation, freehand macro focus stacking, etc.

Last edited by falconeye; 12-29-2015 at 03:43 AM.
12-29-2015, 03:49 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Interestingly, from a technological point of view, it should happen last (or never) in the studio.
I'm not seeing that here in Australia*, certainly there is more video being used than before. Work is being done at the bottom of the barrel with DSLR video, to camera systems by RED and ARRI ALEXA at the high end. But a majority of work done is stills oriented, because of the versatility,simplicity and lower set up and breakdown times. I have worked with ARRI ALEXA and to a lesser degree with RED but even with all that, there was still a need for stills due to the limited resolution of the video systems** not to mention budget constraints - which is always an issue especially with video equipment hire costs being what they are***.


*I'm not just based in Adelaide - I work in Sydney and Melbourne too. Adelaide is a small market.
**And also the low light didn't help much either, video stills taken from a 5K Scarlet RED camera stream at High gain fell apart, while still cameras like the Nikon D4s and 645Z are able to use much higher ISOs and still produce excellent image quality.
***Though on the projects I was working with video, they were using my lenses on their equipment to reduce the reliance on hired cine glass. That, and i'm one of three photographers in Adelaide who own a Leica Noctilux 50mm f/0.95 ASPH.

Last edited by Digitalis; 12-29-2015 at 04:05 AM.
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